Will Jesus and the Saints rule the Earth?

We will rule and reign with Jesus. But will Jesus and the saints rule the earth from the earth or from heaven?

This is the fifth article in the series on Amillennialism. If you haven’t read the previous articles (they build on one another), please read them first:

Will there be a Millennial Kingdom?

Is the Millennial Kingdom a literal 1000 years?

Can There be a Resurrection without an Earthly Kingdom?

Do God’s Promises prove an Earthly Kingdom?

Please consider reading all the articles before tackling this one.

Will Jesus and the Saints rule the Earth?

Our first four articles have clearly established that there will be a Kingdom on the earth for a literal 1000 years after the return of Jesus. The question now is whether Jesus and the saints will rule the earth from the earth or from heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 clearly states that after the Rapture, the saints will always be with the Lord. So whether Jesus is, there the saints will be also. If Jesus reigns from the earth in the Millennial Kingdom, the saints will be there as well. Thus all we need to do to answer this question is to find out where Jesus is during this time (or vice-versa). The saints and Jesus will be together wherever they are.

Heavenly or Earthly Zion and Jerusalem

We must first establish that in the eternal state, Jerusalem and God the Father will descend to the earth and God the Father and Jesus will dwell on the earth with men forever. This is very clear.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.  And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.  And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them . . . I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Rev. 21:1-4, 22)

We also know that the Millennial Kingdom will take place on earth, so the only question is will Jesus and the saints rule it from the earth or heaven. This is complicated because there is a heavenly Mount Zion and Jerusalem as well as earthly ones. Which do Bible verses refer to? Some point to this verse:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of [h]angels,  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant (Heb. 12:22-24)

This absolutely establishes that there is a heavenly Zion and Jerusalem as well as an earthly one. However, notice a few things. It states “you have come” to Christians. This is currently occurring. It doesn’t say “you shall come.” This passage is a contrast between Judaism and Christianity during our earthly lives not after. Also notice the “spirits” of the righteous are living there, this is pre-resurrection and pre-Millennial Kingdom (when the righteous will be in glorified bodies not as spirits.)  In other words, this heavenly Zion and Jerusalem are in existence right now and Jesus is there right now as are the spirits of the deceased saints.

This heavenly Jerusalem will be the one that descends to the earth in the eternal state. Jesus in it now, but this still doesn’t answer where he will be in the Millennial Kingdom.

Biblical Witnesses

There are literally 2 dozen of scriptures that clearly show Jesus will rule from Zion and Jerusalem during the Millennium, but only a few show which ones: heavenly or earthly.

The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”  The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, sayingRule in the midst of Your enemies   . . .  He will judge among the nations, He will fill them with corpses, He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.He will drink from the brook by the waysideTherefore He will lift up His head. (Psalm 110: 1-2, 7)

Jesus is said to rule in the midst of his enemies. Obviously those enemies aren’t in heaven! Also notice him drinking from the brook while judging the nations and filling them with corpses; also not in heaven.

Jeremiah specifies that Jesus will reign as King in the land; not over the land, but IN it.

Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; and He will reign as king and act wisely and do justice and righteousness in the land.” (Jer. 23:5)

In Ezekiel, Jesus says directly he will be IN Israel after the Battle of Gog and Magog (Armageddon).

My holy name I will make known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let My holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.  Behold, it is coming and it shall be done,” declares the Lord God. “That is the day (Day of the Lord) of which I have spoken. (Ezek. 39:7-8)

In Joel, Jesus is said to dwell in Jerusalem after the Day of the Lord, but a caveat is added, that strangers will no longer pass through it. This can only be the earthly Jerusalem. Strangers don’t pass through the heavenly Jerusalem!

For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon grow dark and the stars lose their brightness . . . Then you will know that I am the Lord your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, and strangers will pass through it no more. (Joel 3:14-17)

In Zephaniah, we see that Jesus is King of Israel on the earth. Obviously Jesus has no need to say to the heavenly Jerusalem to not be afraid, only to the earthly one. And he is in their midst on the earth.

In that day it will be said to Jerusalem: Do not be afraid, O Zion; Do not let your hands fall limp. The Lord your God is in your midst. . . Indeed, I will give you renown and praise among all the peoples of the earth. (Zeph. 3:16-17, 20)

Zechariah has several verses that clearly state that Jesus will reign on the earth.

“Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the Lord. “Many nations will join themselves to the Lord in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.  The Lord will possess Judah as His portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem. “(Zech. 2:10-12)

Again we see this happens “in the land” and if Jesus again chooses Jerusalem, it can only be the earthly one. Obviously he has always chosen the heavenly one.

Later in Zechariah, Jesus’s feet touch the Mount of Olives and he becomes King of all the EARTH. Does he ascend again to do this?

In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. . . And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one. (Zech. 14:4,9)

These examples are not simply one isolated verse. There is very substantial evidence that Jesus will reign from the earthly Jerusalem for a 1000 years and the saints with him. After that the heavenly Jerusalem will descend to the earth and God the Father and Jesus will dwell on the earth with the saints.

We are to resurrected into glorified bodies. Bodies are made for the earth not heaven. If we remained in heaven it would be fine to be spirits, but if scripture says we are bodily resurrected there is a reason. That reason is to reign with Jesus upon the earth.

The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever. (Psalm 37:29)

In the next article we will look at the final aspect of this study, whether the promises of God made to the Jews have been transferred to the Church. Has the Church replaced the Jews?

37 thoughts on “Will Jesus and the Saints rule the Earth?”

  1. Bro Nelson,

    YES we can always change our opinion….i don’t know how many time i change side.

    But again we can always agree to disagree.

  2. Bro Nelson,

    When someone says i don’t want to meet lawyer or cop or insurance agent that doesn’t mean lawyer or cop or insurance agent looking for him/her.

    If i say i don’t want to see allah or mohamad meaning that i don’t believe them.

    You give referral article but on that article you states 7th seal is when Jesus coming but now you insist was 6th.

    Your theory timing of rapture during 7th seal cancel 6th trumpet since there 2 holy people the 2 witnesses still on earth. This cancel your pre-wrath theory.

    First white horse is not antichrist but early 500 years Christian movement. Revelation didn’t contradict itself using same symbol (and color) for opposite characters.

    There are four “7” and they are not continuation of each other they are overlapping in timeline. Saying they are continuation is like saying Revelation 1 to 22 are in chronology in timeline. Revelation is continuation in writing but the timeline clearly not because in the middle is overlapping.

    The key to get better understanding timeline of book of Revelation is to know that letters to 7 churches actually refer to 7 era/period of church.

    The idea that Messiah will come to establish earthly kingdom and rule from Jerusalem is not coming from Christian but from old Jewish version interpretation which already rejected by Jesus.

    Jesus said My kingdom is not from this world so clearly He has no intention to become earthly politician. Jesus established spiritual kingdom and He can rule on earth from heaven.

    You keep dragging already fulfilled prophecies (in the past) saying it is not fulfilled waiting futuristic fulfillment. Same mistake made by the Jew saying Messiah is not coming yet although calculation 490 years from Daniel already passed long time ago, even if they try find starting point (date) they will fail.

    70 weeks Dan 9 is dual prophecy about the first coming of Messiah follow destruction of Jerusalem and both already fulfilled. Dan 9 antichrist is Titus this is not related with prophecy 2 Thess 2 about the antichrist claiming God which was refer to allah 666.

    Of course we can always agree to disagree bro.

    1. donal, thanks for reading the article. I used to believe the rapture happened at the 7th seal; it might, but I think the biblical evidence is not as strong – see I change my mind when biblical evidence points in a different way. I now believe the rapture is between the sixth and seventh seals.

      Matt. 24:29-30 and Rev. 6:12-17 are the same two events looked at from different angles. We know this because there are 6 events that happen and they are recorded in both accounts. 1) the sun darkens, 2) the moon darkens, 3) the stars fall, 4) the sky or clouds are rolled up (Matt. 24 calls it the heavens are shaken), 5) the tribes of the earth mourn (Rev. 6 depicts this by them hiding under rocks), and finally 6) Jesus comes on the clouds. In Rev. 6 this is alluded to because everyone on earth sees Jesus’s face. This is incredible evidence that these are the same two events.

      Now in your statement you are saying the inhabitants of the earth are wishing to not see Jesus in the future, but that they haven’t seen him yet. But that is not what the text says. The inhabitants say to the rocks “hide us from Jesus’s face.” Hiding under rocks is different than wishing. Asking something to “hide” you is physical. Jesus’s face is very physical. So in combination, these two things: the exact parallels between Matt. 24:29-30 and Rev. 6:12-17, and the physical nature of Jesus’s presence clearly show this is the moment Jesus comes on the clouds.

      You then mention your theory that the trumpets and seals and bowls overlap, but you give no evidence. I gave you three scriptural reasons the seals all open before a single trumpet is sounded. One can’t simply “say” they overlap. You must disprove what I’ve shown you first and then provide proof for your theory. You’ve done neither.

  3. Bro Nelson,

    I don’t do double standard in interpretation but Revelation is using symbolic more compare to Zech 12.

    1. 7 trumpets are not continuation of 7 seals.
    2. Good “literal” explanation
    3. Good “literal” explanation
    4. Good “literal” explanation

    To sum up points 2,3,4 could happen during 1927 Jericho earthquake.

    6th seal didn’t say Jesus come during that event but imply that even during hard times people refuse to “see” Jesus.

    1. donal, in reply to your final point, the text says “hide us from the FACE” of him who sits on the throne. This isn’t a metaphorical “seeing” but specifically mentions his face and a physical seeing. When you come this to Matt. 24:29-30, there are six fingerprint similarities between Rev. 6:12-17 and Matthew. They are the same event.

      In regard to the trumpets following the seals, your point is a very common misconception because once its understood that the trumpets DO follow the seals, the only explanation of the chronology of the endtimes is a Pre-Wrath Rapture. So everyone is invested in trying to say otherwise, not only you. If you read THIS ARTICLE I give a more full explanation. But the short version is:

      1. Matt. 24 and Rev. 6 are exact mirror images of each other. The disciples asked for a sign of Jesus’s parousia and Jesus gave them six-they are the same six signs as the six seals. This is carefully detailed in Revelation Deciphered. Yet Jesus did not mention the trumpets or bowls as signs of his coming. Why? They are events of earthshaking magnitude, yet they aren’t mentioned as signs of his coming. The reason is they come AFTER his parousia, his coming PRECEDES the trumpets! Otherwise Jesus seriously misled the disciples and us by not mentioning them as signs.

      2. After the six seals are opened (Rev. 7:1 “After this”), God’s angels seal the 144,000 Jews from the tribes. The angels are told “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.” The harming of the trees (Trumpet one), the sea (Trumpet two) and the earth (Trumpet one) are things that happen during the trumpets. This is a direct reference. So after the seals is the sealing and after the sealing are the trumpets. The reading of scripture is a clear straight chronology.

      3. In Rev. 8:1-2, we see the trumpets are given to the angels to blow only after the seventh seal is opened. “When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.” Nothing could be more clear. Again this is clear straight line chronology. The first six seals are opened first and then the Jewish remnant is sealed and the elect are raptured. Then the seventh seal is broken and only then are the trumpets blown. Nothing could be more clear.

  4. Bro Nelson,

    6th seal…that’s another differences, you interpret that literally while i don’t.

    – If the sky was really rolled up like a scroll (literal not symbolic) then you can kiss goodbye with earthly MK…..correct?

    – Do you know how big a star compare to earth….now if many of them fell to earth i say earth is toast….literally….we don’t Einstein to explain that.

    – If every mountain and island removed from its place (literally)….have you watch movie title 2012..? What happened on that movie was nothing compare to this if you think this is literal. Beside if all mountain gone including Mount Olive then how Jesus will stand there ???

    I have read your 6th article. You quoting those old testament verses and i say your literal version of 6th seal cancel your version of earthly MK.

    We can always agree to disagree.

    1. donal, it is interesting how those who spiritualize passages do so or don’t do so to support their theology. In your last comment, you took Zech. 12:10 hyper literally, but now spiritualize the sixth seal.

      1.The purpose of the sixth seal is for God to get the attention of every person on earth to alert them that the trumpet judgments that are about to take place are of HIS doing. It is also the sign that Jesus is on his way to rapture and save the elect. That said, the text tells us that these events are of a magnitude that God accomplishes his purposes. Every human hides himself in caves and under rocks. So let’s look at the events you mention:

      2. “The sky rolled up like a scroll”- what could this be? First of all it is a quote from Isa. 34:4 and Heb. 1:12 refers to the same “rolling up.” John saw something in this vision and so did the other writers. They are trying to describe it in their best human image. They saw the sky appear to roll up. Some have said this is what the clouds look like they are doing if there is a “pole-shift” (where the magnetic pole of the earth moves) as the earth moves but the cloud cover doesn’t. A pole-shift would also result in tremendous earthquakes. It also could be the hand of God sweeping away the cloud cover to reveal Jesus coming on the clouds. This is the point where God is physically intervening on the earth so nothing is impossible. It obviously doesn’t mean the entire atmosphere is split and rolled up. The sky rolling up can be literal without the atmosphere being split!

      3. “stars fall like figs” All heavenly bodies were called stars in the First Century. Even to this day a meteor is called a falling “star.” So a meteor storm or even all our man made satellites falling would have this effect. Remember this is a vision John is seeing and trying to describe. Obviously it can be literal but this isn’t what we 21st century folks call stars.

      4. “every island and mountain moved” Again this is John trying to describe what he sees. How would a first century man describe a shift in tectonic plates? Probably just like this! When God flooded the world it was an event of tremendous power. This one will be similar. Luke 21 tells us there will be Tsunamis. Joel 2 tells us there will be columns of smoke (volcanoes?) which probably lead to the Day of the Lord being a day of thick clouds.

      This event heralds the return of Jesus, why wouldn’t it shake the earth and everyone on it?

  5. Bro Nelson,

    Clearly we can’t reconcile our differences, Your version talking about Jesus coming in clouds for the first resurrection (for earthly MK) while for me it is talking second resurrection (for final judgement). But at least we agree that Jesus coming several times.

    I don’t know how you get 1 year 10 days but i think 6th seal earthquake only happen in seconds or minutes or couple hours after that 7th only mentioned silence for half hour not 1 year 10 days and in prophetic calculation half hour is either 7.5 days ( a day equals a year) or 20-21 years ( a day equals a thousand years) or maybe literal 30 minutes.

    If those 6th seal earthquake was 1927 Jericho earthquake then we add 20-21 years we get 1948 (according to my timeline).

    I don’t see Bible prophecies only in term of theories (interpretations) but also in real “application”. You can’t solve “the puzzle” with just theories but must “applicable” in real “life” because Bible prophecies are not fairy tales but real things.

    Joel Richardson allow other to read his book for free if you visit his web, why don’t you? People love free stuff especially if it is good stuff, they will always come back for more.

    1. If the sixth seal happened in 1927 that would mean all the events associated with it in Rev. 6:12-17 happened: the sky was rolled up like a scroll, the stars fell and Jesus’s fact was seen by all people on earth (Rev. 6:16). Even you know this is not correct. The sixth seal has 6 exact fingerprint similarities to the events in Matt. 24:29-30, they are the same events. (sun darkened, moon darkened, stars fall, heavens shaken [split], tribes mourn [hide under rocks], Jesus is seen by every eye). And in both cases these events are followed by the Rapture (Matt. 24:31 and Rev. 7:9).

      Joel provides foreign language translations of Mideast Beast on his site. Unfortunately my books haven’t been translated. This ministry doesn’t make a dollar of profit and I don’t take any salary. I work 3 days a week at a “day job” to provide for my family. Every cent of book sales is invested back into the mission of awakening the church. Buying a book is investing in that mission.

  6. Bro Nelson

    Now i confuse with your version (your timeline), let me get this straight bro:

    1. Jesus coming in clouds as sign of rapture (i agree)
    2. You think same event refer to Rev 19 war ( i disagree)
    3. You think after Rev 19 war ,MK will start ( i disagree)
    4. You think Jesus (and saints) will physically rule on earth after Rev 19 war ( i disagree)

    Now, according to Mat 24:30 all tribes on earth will mourn (not just house of David), Mark 13:26-37 refer to same with Mat 24:30 and stating we should not sleep (Mark 13:36). In parable of 10 virgins (Mat 25) 5 failed to attend the wedding which will be held in heaven (Rev 19:7-10) not earth.

    The saints should be already raptured before Rev 19 war because the wedding already happen (in heaven). This contradict with your timeline states coming of Jesus in Rev 19 war as sign of rapture (??)

    Coming of Jesus in Rev 19 war talking about war not mentioning about harvest or rapture.

    How they raptured then go back to rule earth (MK) at same time?? This is not what Mat 24 or Mark 13 talking about. How they enter the wedding in heaven (not sleep on earth) then go back at same time??

    You think Zech 12:10 is same event with second coming i think it is not same event. Zech 12:10 didn’t mentioned about rapture at all.

    I think you should re-arrange your timeline on more time bro.

    Regarding the time they wear robes i say inconclusive. You said after 6th i say during 5th, beside I do not think all of them wear the robe at same time. For me the persecution (5th seal) is a long time period and the “harvest” time (barley, wheat, grape) could happen several (different) times not just one time event.

    1. donal, if you read Revelation Deciphered (this is about the 5th time I’ve suggested it for you), you would have a clear understanding of how I see Revelation. Your understanding in your comment is NOT my understanding at all.

      1. I believe the Rapture occurs after 6 of the 7 years of the 70th Week of Daniel. I believe this event is depicted in Matt. 24:31 and Mark 13:27. I do NOT believe this event is the same as Rev. 19:11-16. In Rev. we get a “heaven’s eye view” of the rapture because Revelation is primarily a vision in heaven. So the events on earth (trumpet, angels gathering together the elect) will not be seen. In Rev. 6:16 we see a parallel to Matt. 24:30 where Jesus appears before all people. In Rev. 6:16 we see that the world asks to be hidden from Jesus’s “face.” This is parallel to Rev. 1:7 when Jesus comes on the clouds and all the tribes mourn. The Rapture is depicted in Rev. 7:9 when a great multitude appears in heaven who weren’t there before. Johns says “Behold! A great multitude.”

      So I agree with your number one and number two above. The saints are raptured prior to Rev. 19:11-16. They are raptured between Rev. 6:16 and 7:9; probably right at Rev. 7:9

      2. So there is a one year 10 day period between the rapture and the events of Rev. 19:11-16. That is how the saints then return with the Lord. They are in heaven for that period. During that period, however, the Jewish remnant is still on the earth during the trumpet and bowl judgements.

      3. Zech. 12:10 is not related to Rev. 19:11-16, it is the same time period as Matt. 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, Rev. 1:7 and Rev. 6:16. This is the parousia of Jesus, when he comes on the clouds and raptures the saints also mentioned in 1 Thess. 4:16-17 and 2 Thess. 2:1-10. Zech. mentions only the Jews mourning because he is writing only to the Jews. The NT passages show us that all the tribes of the earth mourn at this point, but the jews mourn as on the death of a first born son. The remnant will repent at this point.

      4. In terms of the wearing of robes, we know this cannot happen until after the celestial earthly disturbance in Matt. 24:29 and Rev. 6:12-15. The robes can only be worn by those in bodies, resurrection bodies.

      1. Nelson,
        I think Rev 7:14-17 validates your view of the rapture occurring at Rev 7:9. Particularly Rev 7:17 ..for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” This shows the Jesus is in heaven with them. This occurs immediately following the cosmic disturbance, the heavens rolled up like a scroll, and all on earth see the throne of God in heaven, with Jesus.

        It also corroborates 1 Thess 4:17…After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever

  7. Bro Nelson

    LOL. i think there is misperception here. You refer to those living while i refer to those already dead (first resurrection)

    After re-read, the problem is you trying to connect Rev 1:7 with Zech 12:10 which look like similar but maybe it is two different events. Zech 12:10 those who mourn were House of David while Rev 1:7 is all earth so it is not same event.

    I agree that Zech 12:10 most likely relate to MK. But Rev 20 didn’t specify where MK started in heaven or earth…..we only making assumption.

    – Will Jesus and saints rule the earth: YES
    – Will They rule from earth or heaven: heaven
    – Is it 1000 years ruling literal : YES
    – Is there earthly MK ; YES (symbolic)

    I used historical approach because no one here can relate Bible with historical facts….all talking possibility theories but Bible talking reality that will occur in ‘the future’…..we are in the future.

    Everyone here agree that we are at endtime and if most Bible prophecy didn’t happen then when? I said it is better to look both windows (future and the past).

    Your site is not the only site i write.

    It seems you censor my unfinished 7 bowls of wrath…fine.

    Regarding Rev 7:9 as the time they wear white robes i’m not sure about that. The verse only shows they already wear it but when they wear not mentioned at all….i say during 5th seal not after 6th seal. Why they given robes and not wearing anyway???

    Do you think the current Israel nation relate to MK ? it seems that Zech 12 relate to current Israel nation….i think. Try to compare with 2 witnesses 6th trumpet.

    1. donal, A common error is to see one scripture as giving a limited view and another as more complete and thinking they’re different events. This is like one gospel reporting one angel at Jesus’s tomb and another two angels. Can the both be correct? Yes. If there are two then there is definitely one; the first report just mentioned one while there were two. In the same way, If Jerusalem is mourning, might all the world be mourning at the same time? Yes, of course, they might be. In Rev. 1:7 “every eye shall see him.” This will result in mourning from everyone. Zech. 12:10 is just reporting it from Jerusalem’s perspective.

      In regard to the robes, it is a process.

      1. They are promised to the saints in Rev. 3:4 and 3:18
      2. They are given the robes in Rev. 6:9-11
      3. They wash them in the blood of the lamb in Rev. 7:14 (this was past tense)
      4. They put them on in Rev. 19:8 (this was past tense)
      5. They wear them before the throne in Rev. 7:9
      6. They wear them back to earth in Rev. 19:14

      So the putting on of the robes happens between Rev. 6:9-11 and Rev. 7:9. Souls can’t wear robes, only those in resurrection bodies can. Where does that happen? At the rapture pictured in Matt. 24:30-31 which occurs after the celestial earthly disturbance event in Matt. 24:29 (which is the same as the sixth seal of revelation.)

  8. Bro Nelson

    Well if you remember many Jews want Jesus to die so this also apply to them (during Jesus era) not the currently living Jew.

    Eze 18:20
    ….The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

    You are not suggesting Zech 12:10 apply to those currently living Jew right?

    Those who pierced Him will not in first resurrection so during MK they still dead….they are not saints and only saints will in first resurrection.

    Again how can they see if they still dead…???

    Conclusion is very clear Rev 1:7 didn’t refer to first resurrection but second resurrection so nothing to do with MK.

    I believed i post more than that bro….where?

    it seems my internet connection in problem this is 3rd times i trying to post.

    1. Of course, I believe Zech. 12:10 applies to currently living Jews. 99% of Christians believe that. I think you are the first I’ve encountered who believes otherwise. The one “they” have pierced. “They” refers to those of the house of David and inhabitants of Jerusalem on the Day of the Lord which is the Resurrection and Rapture. They will see Jesus coming on the clouds and that is the moment they mourn.

      You are wrong then that all Jews will be dead during the Millennial Kingdom. The remnant of Jews will survive the Wrath of God and will enter the Millennial Kingdom as living survivors who believe in Jesus.

  9. Bro Nelson

    Regarding “kings” just say we have different opinion. For me only king can reign and since they reign (with Christ) they must be (quality as) kings.

    Your flashback theory is correct that’s why i proposed “overlapping timeline” theory but flashback is more proper word.

    Theory that satan bound long time ago is because overlapping timeline (flashback) theory….nothing more. I can understand if you reject historical satan bound time theory but consider below idea (4th)

    Regarding time of first resurrection after 6th seal i think they already resurrect during 5th seal. if they already given white robes during 5th seal why their resurrection delay to after 6th ???

    I noticed that name of God described during 5th seal is Holy and True which same with 6th era of church. It seems Revelation imply the avenge of their blood will occur during 6th era (the fall of 2nd beast aka the sunni caliphate–ottoman disband 1920 under treaty Sevres).

    Rev 20 imply that bound of satan occur before first Resurrection, Bible also imply first resurrection will occur during 5th seal.

    Now according to my timeline ( you can disagree) that persecution timeline will occur after 4th seal yellow pale horse and yellow pale horse refer to sunni islam aka 8th kingdom. Since 8th kingdom/head started to rule 660-1920 (1260 years) so the time of satan bound must be around that timeline.

    My theory suggest that 10 horns are 10 kings of early islam period they are mohamad and 9 others they will rule for one hour aka 41.6 years (620-661). The last 3 kings (ali, hasan, husein) will fight against muawiya rebellion (little horn Dan 7) and muawiya rebellion rise new kind of islam known as the sunni. This period of war known as first fitnah in which sunni wins (one head wounded but heal —8th attacking 7th head).

    Satan give his throne to the beast. Where is satan throne? I believe it was refers synagogue of satan (al aqsa mosque) build by fake Jew (muslim) rise during 2nd period of church then fall during 6th period of church. And since al aqsa mosque was finished during 8th century so satan bound must be after 8th century. When?hmmm…i don’t know.

    I disagree with your theory suggest false prophet (Rev 19 war) will be 2nd beast i think it is refers to mohamad. . Because 2nd beast already defeated during WW-1 while during WW-2 (Armageddon it suggests false prophet still outthere).

    Regarding old testament verses not relate to MK, i say we continue after your 6th article.

    1. donal, you continue to bring up this “historical” approach to scripture for which there is zero biblical support, ie. WWII, ancient Isalmic kings, etc. I have allowed this for some time, but this will be the last post that I won’t censor it out. I am happy to discuss biblical issues, but this historic approach is not what this site is about. Please discuss these issues on other sites. If you haven’t noticed, you are the only one supporting this type of eschatology on this site.

      You did ask one biblical question which I’ll answer. You asked why the Resurrection can’t happen after the fifth seal (Rev. 6:9-11). Notice that the martyrs are given the white garments but asked to wait to put them on. We don’t see them wearing them until Rev. 7:9, after the sixth seal, but before the seventh. The white garments are a great time marker for the Resurrection and Rapture but it isn’t until Rev. 7:9 that we see the saints wearing them.

  10. Nelson my last comment was a bit cryptic ……. it was said by donai that the coming was just for the white throne judgement ……… my point that Jesus had come 1,000 yrs before and was on his throne in Jerusalem to judge not coming in the clouds at that later time

  11. Bro Roland

    If you said coming of Jesus in clouds is marking the start of MK then you creating contradiction. Let me show you why?

    Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

    Those who pierced him already dead correct? They will not in first resurrection because they are not saints correct? If they still dead when Jesus coming in clouds to start MK (your version) then how they able to see???

    The only explanation they able to see if they resurrect in second resurrection. That’s why i states Jesus coming in clouds is not related to MK but to final victory against satan and final judgement.

    1. donal, I have to say this makes me chuckle. Coming from someone who tends to symbolize everything, you now make Rev. 1:7 “hyper-literal” in that you say the individuals who pierced Jesus will see him coming on the clouds? This reference to piercing comes from Zech 12:10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son.” Notice it is about a class of people, the House of Daivd and the inhabitants of Jerusalem not the individuals who did it literally. Obviously all of them didn’t pierce Jesus. If you look at Zech. 12:6 you will see it happens on the Day of the Lord (after the opening of the Sixth Seal). So on that day, the living Jews (the class of people) will see Jesus coming on the clouds and mourn for him. But it will be too late for them to be raptured. They will endure the Wrath of God (Trumpet and Bowl judgements) prior to Jesus returning to save them at the physical second coming.

      Again donal, its all about reference quotes in Revelation. They are the key to understanding. I highly recommend you read Revelation Deciphered.

  12. This is after Jesus coming in clouds……………

    Revelation 20: 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment (He is actually giving justice to glorious dead) was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of [b]their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years……………..

    The white throne judgement is after the 1,000 years

    7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the [c]seashore.
    9 And they came up on the [d]broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (beloved city is Earthy Jerusalem)
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

    (Jesus hasn’t come on clouds of Heaven)

    1. Roland, Yes, the elders and the Lord judge the dead and the living in Rev. 20:4. Those found written in the Lamb’s book of life are resurrected (if necessary) and raptured. Those not found in the Lamb’s book of life are not resurrected, nor are they raptured. Their resurrection occurs 1000 years later as you rightly observe.

      I don’t think I understand your last comment (Jesus hasn’t come on the clouds). Please explain

  13. Dear Roland

    Coming of Jesus you talking about is not signal of MK but for final victory against satan and Judgement day (Rev 20). There is no proof that was relate to MK at all.

    Dear Nelson

    I’m not saying you can’t quote old testament verses but those verses you quote not relate to MK. it is more likely some of those verses talking about first coming of Christ and his spiritually earthly Zion nothing to do with MK at all.

    1. donal, I broke your comment up into two sections, because you make this statement and don’t back it up. Then you move on to other topics to distract our attention from the proofs presented in this article. STOP and show why each verse I present in this article isn’t the Millennial Kingdom on earth. You can’t simply say what you did without demonstrating it. If you can’t demonstrate it, then you can’t make this statement.

    2. Dear Nelson (donal this is the second part of your comment)

      Third temple??? our bodies are the temples. I already examine verses relate to what so called 3rd temple and clearly they misinterpret those verses.

      Of course Rev 19 passage continue with Rev 20 but In timeline Rev 19 is not fully continuous with Rev 20 only some part. Here’s the logic:

      1. Those souls in Rev 20 still without white robes But in Rev 19 they already wearing white robes.
      2. Rev 20 talking about first resurrection right? If the first resurrection occur during Rev 20 then who are those Rev 19 white horses rider army???

      It is overlapping and claiming it is not only contradict Revelation timeline. But yes i agree it is talking about 2 different wars to punish 3 enemies: the beast, false prophet and satan.

      If those “kings” are not the saints then who??

      Rev 3:21
      To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to SIT with Me on My THRONE, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

      Rev 20:6
      …and will REIGN with Him for a thousand years.

      Rev 22:5
      ….and They will REIGN forever and ever

      If they reign with Christ they should qualify as kings too correct?

      I’m not adding anything.

      Now here is my (Nelson’s) comments:

      donal, now you are making more sense. These are biblical arguments. Let’s look at each individually:

      1. The Third Temple. The first problem with your argument that there won’t be a third temple is that scripture calls our bodies the “temple of the Holy Spirit” not of Jesus who has a physical body and cannot sit on the throne of our hearts. Only the Spirit can. Jesus must have a physical throne for his physical body. Second, in 2 Thess. 2:3-4, the MAN of lawlessness sits in the temple of God. A “man” cannot sit in someone’s heart. Only a spirit can dwell in someone’s heart. He must sit in a physical temple Third, Jesus says we will see the Abomination of Desolation referred to by Daniel. This reference is Dan. 9:27, Dan. 11:31, and Dan. 12:11. In Dan. 11:31, it specifically mentions the sanctuary fortress. In the Septuagint version of Dan. 9:27 (used by the New Testament writers) it specifically mentions the AOD is set up ON the temple (not in it.) This is clear evidence that a temple will be built.

      2. Your point about Rev. 19 and 20 is a good one. The timetable of Rev. 19-20 IS complex. In terms of the white garments, in Rev. 19:8 they “were given” (past) to the bride. This happened back prior to Rev. 7:9 (they are wearing them from that point on.) So why is it mentioned in Rev. 19:8? Because of the reference that happens in Rev. 19:14, to show that it is the saints who are riding the white horses.

      After the return of Jesus and the saints, his enemies are punished. First, the demons (the Beast and False Prophet[second beast]) are thrown into the lake of fire. Second, all humans who came against Jesus are killed and fed to the birds. Third, Satan is chained in the abyss. This is one complete thought from Rev. 19:17-Rev. 20:3. The order is important as well. Satan is the LAST one punished. His imprisonment follows that of the demons and the humans. One can’t break out Satan’s imprisonment and say it happened long ago. There is absolutely no biblical basis to say this.

      3. You then bring up Rev. 20:4 and how it seems out of place. It is. THIS is the point where the chronology of Rev. 20 does a flashback. But carefully notice. Just as with Rev. 19:8, John (through the Holy Spirit) shows us by means of “quotes” where this falls in the chronology!!! There is a biblical reason for this flashback, unlike Amillennialists randomly saying Satan’s binding is previous. The two quotes are “I saw thrones and they sat upon them” and “I saw souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony and because of the Word of God.” The thrones quote is from Rev. 4:2-4. Judgment is given to the 24 elders and the Lord. The Old Testament reference is to Dan. 7:9-10 which is parallel to all of Rev. chapters 4-8:1. The souls quote is from Rev. 6:9-11 as we saw in THIS ARTICLE. John is then telegraphing the timing of the resurrection as after the sixth seal. That is the timing of the resurrection not here in Rev. 20. Why is it mentioned in Rev. 20? For the same reason Rev. 19:8 is mentioned there; so that a previous event in Revelation (in this case the First Resurrection) can be contrasted with a future event (in this case the Second Resurrection.)

      But the only reason we can say this is John’s use of REFERENCE QUOTES. That is scripture interpreting scripture; the only proper way to do exegesis. Amillennialists say Satan was bound long ago without any biblical basis. That is reading into scripture what they want it to say and not biblical at all.

      4. In terms of the saints being “kings,” the bible says they reign but it never calls them kings or lords. They are not given titles. Words are very important in scripture as we saw in the example in #3 above. They are how scripture interprets scripture (via reference quotes). So I am very careful not to make assumptions and call a group something that the bible doesn’t specifically state. This opens you up to all sorts of interpretive errors. Might the saints be given the title of “king?” Maybe, but I recommend not using any title that the Bible doesn’t confer.

  14. There are two undeniable reasons why Jesus and the saints will rule from earth. One is your last post, the Lord promised land to Abraham’s seed (Israel) from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates river. Reason two Acts 1:11 says Jesus will return the SAME way he left. How did he leave? In a physical glorified body and he ascended up and the CLOUDS received him out of their sight. This is exactly why the Bible says they shall see the son of man coming in the CLOUDS with power and great glory (glorified powerful body). He then sets his feet on the mount of olives. Its obvious once hes here hes here to stay with the saints in Jerusalem.

  15. One signal before the MK starts is given in Rev 1:7

    Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

    As this hasn’t happened yet…. all those supposed dates must be wrong……

    1. Of course Roland, that is quite a “signal!” It’s also depicted in Matt. 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and Rev. 6:16-17. If Jesus and the saints are already ruling, we aren’t doing a good job given world events. This certainly doesn’t match the scriptures that describe it as a time of peace.

  16. Bro Nelson,

    Again you quoting from old testament verses BUT again you can’t prove those verses talking about millennial kingdom.

    Mat 18:20
    For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.

    Mat 18:20 cancel all your quoting verses from old testament trying to relate with millennial kingdom.

    You forget to answer one big question:
    Where is the location of Jesus earthly throne (seat) if He rule physically millennial kingdom on earth?

    During 6th era of church/Philadelphia (19th century until 1967), Jesus said He holds the key of David. What is key of David ?

    Isa 22:21-22
    21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
    22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

    The key of the house of David is upon his shoulder? What does that mean? Let Isaiah explain. Speaking about Jesus, Isaiah says:

    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    The key of the house of David is symbolic for the government of Eliakim in Isaiah 22 (v.21), which is a type or symbol of the government of Jesus Christ as described in Isaiah 9. Note also that according to Isaiah, the government or kingdom of Jesus Christ is established,

    As i said before that although millennial kingdom started in heaven but we can see it symbol on earth. And i say restoration of Israel 1948/1967 could be that symbol.

    But since i think Rev 19 & 20 overlapping in timeline i think that earthly symbol maybe not the start/beginning instead end part. I propose new theory possible of millennial kingdom started :

    1. MK started 1099 after crusader captured Jerusalem.
    2. MK started 1228 after 6th crusade war.
    3. MK started 1948
    4. MK started 1967

    But again i must states that possibility millennial kingdom started during 5th era of churches Thyatira (11th – 15th century—my timeline version)

    Rev 2:26-27
    26 And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations.
    27 He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them — like pottery just as I have received authority from My Father.

    Authority to do what? To rule.

    Second prove
    Look what Jesus describe Himself during 5th church era: who’s eyes like blazing fire. Compare that with Rev 19 name: Faithful and True (7th era) and who’s eyes like blazing fire (5th era).

    Now look what Name written on robe and thigh: King of kings and Lord of lords.

    The king is Jesus and those kings were white horse riders….so they already kings (ruling) not from earth but from heaven.

    So the conclusion is millennial kingdom already started before Rev 19 war not after. That’s why i insist Rev 19 and 20 are overlapping (some part) but of course Rev 20 war occur after Rev 19 war.

    1. donal, 2 Tim 3:16: ALL scripture is God breathed, of course we can quote the Old Testament and stand by it as the word of God! If you’re not going to accept the authority of scripture, we can’t really discuss anything, nor am I willing to! (Yet of course you yourself are quoting Isaiah a paragraph later, so I don’t think you believe that.)

      You then ask where the location of Jesus’s throne on earth is: The rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. There are dozens of scriptures that speak to this. The question is whether its heavenly Jerusalem or earthly. There are fewer scriptures that prove it is earthly during the Millennial Kingdom. That is why I chose the specific scriptures in this article. Re-read it please. The article is very specific why each one can only refer to an earthly rule.

      You then quote Isa. 22 about the Key of David, which is a symbol of authority. In Rev. 3:7, this is in regard to the door of heaven which Jesus shall open for believers at the Rapture and close behind them (see parable of the ten virgins in Matt. 25). If you had read Revelation Deciphered, all this is explained in detail. I refer you there. But the establishment of this government has nothing to do with Jesus ruling on earth or heaven during the Millennium.

      You then state “You” believe Rev. 19 and 20 are overlapping. Sorry donal, but you must prove that biblically, the clear reading of the text is that they follow each other. What is your bibilical proof? Don’t use the “historical” approach you take which is not biblical. Quote the verses that show this to be true. As was mentioned in THIS ARTICLE, the clear reading of scripture is Rev. 20 and Rev. 19 are the same narrative. This continuous passage shows how Jesus’s three enemies are punished: the Beast, False Prophet, and Satan. Not only do they follow one after another but they tell the same story!

      The white horse riders are the raptured saints, the bride of Christ, donal. Notice they both wear linen, bright (white) and clean. You can’t just “make up” stuff by saying they are kings. This is adding to the Word.

  17. Nelson,
    Does Jeremiah 30 and Ezekiel 37:24 prophesy that David will rule as a King during the 1.000 year reign or during the eternal reign in the new Jerusalem.

    1. Yes, now whether this is the resurrected David (I think so) or just a reference to Jesus as David’s descendant but I’m not sure. Personally I think David will be an associate of Jesus’s ruling the Jews.

      1. David will indeed be resurrected and rule the expanded Israel borders including what is now the so-called “West Bank” which is Samaria and Judea under King Jesus during the millennium. This was confirmed when I researched the millennium temple project I did the summer before last. I cannot remember the exact verses, but God’s promises are there to David and Israel and it will be a great source of joy to Israel during this time. I am much better at remembering “big picture concepts” than specific details.


        1. good4u1..did your study find the mil temple (or the new eternal jerusalem) shaped as a ziggurat. The reason I ask is historians cannot explain why so many of them appear throughout the globe or what there purpose was. Recently a stone was found with an inscription pertaining to Nebuccadnezzor and the tower of Babel in the shape of a ziggurat. The fallen angel, Satan, must surely know the design chosen by God and would therefore steal it and mimic it.

          1. I can’t answer your question in relation to the shape of MT as a ziggurat per se. The MT itself appears to be more of a very large rectangle, imo. But if you want to know more about the ziggurats found world-wide let me suggest that you pick up Derek Gilbert’s new book, “The Great Inception” and he has fascinating evidence that pertains to your post which you may want to know about further. I have read all of his commentary that he has posted and wow! It is super interesting and I’m sure the book is too, I just don’t have the funds right now to purchase it. But I really enjoyed reading everything related to that book. He did very thorough and solid research taking over two years to compile. I’m sure you would enjoy reading it.


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