11 thoughts on “Daniel Chapter 2: ROME OR ISLAM”

  1. Its really hard to tell exactly how it will all play out. But to me when it says the beast is lion bear leopard lion is Babylon (Iraq) Bear is Persia (Iran) body like a leopard would represent a Seleucid like empire, this is why the Antichrist is called the king of the north in Daniel 11 because this is where the beast is located when it first rises. When I say Seleucid like kingdom I’m talking Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey may join this beast because Revelation 13:2 says and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. His seat is Turkey. The area of the Seleucid empire minus everything east of Iran is where I believe we should be looking for. Yes Daniel 8:17-19 does say the vision is for the time of the end. But the scenario with the Ram (Medo-Persia) and the goat (Grecia) and then the empire splitting into 4 did all happen with Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus and Ptolemy over 2000 yrs ago. I’m also not sure if the transgressors reach their full at the end of the Seleucid empire. Plus doesn’t that verse apply to AC? One thing is for sure you will have a king of the north vs king of the south battle again in the future.

  2. Its hard to explain in a nutshell but ill try. First of I think we were misunderstanding a portion of it. Daniel 8:20-22 was future to Daniel but only a little future and I believe this portion was meant to be a stage setting or spring board if you will for the rest of the vision (verse 23 onward). The angel could just start with verse 23 about the fierce king arising in the latter part of their kingdom without showing who the “their” is. I know Joel Richardson and others don’t believe that Alexander’s kingdom divided into 4 exactly and everything. But I think they are misunderstanding that part as well They say there was a period of the diadochi if I pronounced that right for the like 40 years or something before it divided into MORE than four they say. But I think we (myself included up until recently have been splitting hairs with this portion. I think its meant to be understood: The ram (Persia) pushes in the 3 directions and becomes great, then The he goat (Alexander the great’s empire) sweeps across without touching the ground (fast and swift) and destroys the ram, then he (Alexander) becomes great and then he dies, then at some point close to that time (lets say within 50 years since that amount of time is like nothing to God) the kingdom is divided into 4 Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus and Ptolemy and then in the latter time of their kingdom (we know its Seleucus’s kingdom from Daniel 11) the AC arises, then on to tribulation. Like I said the two thighs of brass on the statue are king of the north and king of the south since those 2 were WAY more prominent than the other 2, the other 2 virtually amount to nothing. The legs of Iron are extensions of these 2 thighs, like a continuation of kon/kos if you will, they (legs of Iron) are I believe Shia Islam and Sunni Islam. Since the kingdom is said to be divided and this division happened vitrually from the beginning of Islam. Islam from after Mohammed all the way to WW1 dominated the middle east and Israel through a handful of caliphates, but after WW1 the last caliphate (Ottoman) was defeated and in 1924 the caliphate was abolished and Islam was broken up into the current states we have in the middle east. Islam (iron is still there) but its in a fractured/partly broken state which makes it still have the strength of iron (Islam) in it but also weak like clay. The events during and after WW1 was likely what caused the deadly wound we all talk about. I believe we are almost 93 years into the final portion of the statue (feet). If we were to draw a line across our foot right before the toes that’s probably where we are. Back to the main point verse 23 on in Daniel 8 is future to us 20-22 was future to Daniel but only a spring board for the rest. You should if you get time study some of the maps on Rodrigo’s sites all the Islamic nations mentioned in the Bible that are south of Israel are Sunni (king of south) above Israel where the Seleucid empire was located is Hezbollah which controls huge portions of Lebanon, then you have Syria which is actually like 40% shia but its president (Assad) and leadership is shia, then about half of Iraq is shia, you have mutliple very important cities to shia muslims in Iraq, Karbala, Kufa, Najaf etc. you also have the shiite cleric Al Sadr and he has an shia army called both peace brigades and the Mahdi army and its around 50,000 strong then you have Iran that’s self explanitory. So you can see a Shia/Sunni, king of north/king of south divide. Also those Islamic countries to the south hardly have any shia there all like 97% sunni muslim.

    1. Thanks jlils. A couple problems with this. First and foremost you didn’t address the key verses Dan. 8:17-19. Second you speak of Dan. 8:23:

      In the latter period of their rule, when the transgressors have run their course, a king will arise

      The Seleucid rule has been over for 2000 years! Additionally, all the countries above Israel are not Shia. All the “Stans” (Pakistan, etc.) are certainly not, Turkey is not, Syria and Iraq have Sunni majorities, etc.

      But the main issue is Dan. 8:17-19, it clearly states the vision (not part of it) is about the time of the end.

      As you know, my personal opinion is the AC will claim to be Mohammed and in this way unite Shia and Sunni.

  3. I agree both you and Rodrigo are brilliant teachers. I use to believe Daniel 8 was mostly future as you do. But after studying hard and researching the information on Rodrigo’s sites I now agree with what hes showing. I think the reason why Daniel said the kingdom would be divided is because it will be Sunni vs Shia in the end times battles of king of the north vs king of the south. Micah 5 associates the Assyrian with the land of Nimrod (Iraq), also the beat has the mouth of a lion (Babylon/Iraq). I know people say he wouldn’t come from the Shiite side because there only like 10-15 percent of the Muslim population, but if you combined Hezbollah, the Syrian military, the Iranian military and Al Sadr’s Mahdi army that would be a force 10 times as dangerous as ISIS. All the prophecy in Daniel 8 was future to Daniel I just now believe that the part about the ram and goat was setting the stage for what would happen in the end times, it was future to Daniel but over 2000 yrs old to us. The stage had to be set somewhere. Daniel says in the latter time of the kingdom of the north the AC rises. The 2 thighs of brass are the kings of north/south the legs of Iron are to be direct extensions of the thighs. I think what Rodrigo believes is the revived Seleucid like empire (body of leopard) is Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran with Iraq being the mouth (headquarters) and the feet (Iran) being most of the militray might which seems very possible right now. Hes starting to believe that Turkey is given to this beast to make 5 nations in the north (Seleucid like empire) and they war with 5 nations south of Israel. They war because of the Sunni/Shiite divide. This seems very likely to me. Imagine all those militias I stated above coming together under the leadership of the Assyrian and then Erdogan submitting to the Assyrian thinking hes his Mahdi.

    1. Thanks jlils. As I said there is no reason that the Antichrist can’t be Shia. I agree with all your logic about Iraq/Assyria. However, please let me know why you don’t think Dan. 8:17-19 applies to the entire vision. Dan. 8’s application depends on those verses.

  4. Nelson I have a theory and its hard to explain but I will try. I’m not the only one that believes this. The head of gold on the statue is obviously Babylon, the chest and arms of silver (Medo-Persia) there are two components of the Grecian empire belly and thighs. Belly is obviously the Grecian empire but after Alexander the greats death the kingdom did divide into four but there were 2 main divisions at that time. We know them as king of the north (Seleucid empire) and king of the south (Ptolemiac empire). People never seem to notice the 2 thighs on the statue or they just ignore them and just say bronze=Grecian empire. But the 2 thighs represent to 2 main divisions of the Grecian empire. The 2 thighs then extend into the 2 legs of Iron, divided Islam (Sunni/Shiite). This is why Daniel says the kingdom would be divided, its also why Daniel says in the latter time of their kingdom (Seleucid area) a king of fierce countenance arises. The Seleucid empire (1 of the thighs) extended directly into one of the legs of Iron. The Iron legs extend into the feet of Iron and clay (fractured/partly broken Islam) “Islam of today”. The feet of the statue began in 1924 when the Ottoman empire was defeated and the caliphate was abolished (deadly head wound). Islam then fractured if you will into the current states in the middle east. It still has the strength of Iron (Islam) in it, but its also partly broken and weak like pottery since the caliphate was abolished and the middle east was broken up into states like it is now. Its out of these feet that we are currently in that the ten toes (kings) arise. These are the leaders of 10 Islamic nations that surround Israel. But here is my main point: The kingdom of the north (1 thigh) extended directly into the Shiite leg of the statue. Iran (Shiite Islamic nation/bear) Iraq (about 50% Shiite nation/lion) Lebabon (Hezbollah) Syria (Shiite leadership) make up the body like a leopard “Seleucid like kingdom” (final ‘Shiite” kingdom of the north) I believe Turkey (Erdogan) will submit to the beast (king of the north) and that would make 5 nations in the north. The kingdom of the south (1 thigh) extended directly into the Sunni leg of the statue (5 Sunni Islamic nations to the south of Israel. The Antichrist (king of the north) defeats the 5 Sunni nations to the south and thats when the 10 kings give their power to the beast. Then they come against Israel. Hard to explain but wondering your thoughts on this? Rodrigo Silva believes this very thing.

    1. Rodrigo is a friend and a brilliant teacher. My problem with that teaching is it ignores Dan. 8. I know Rodrigo believes Dan. 8 is just historic, but I disagree. So we agree to disagree on that point.

      However, the AC could easily be Shia and be Assyrian. This is not impossible. I just believe Iran must fall first and Turkey’s empire must be split into four. I would be careful to consider the current nations as the 10 horns as Dan. 8 shows the map of the Middle East will be redrawn again in the future.

  5. Both?

    Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and ONE IS, and THE OTHER IS not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

    Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the IRON MIXED WITH MIRY CLAY.

    It reads as potters’ clay until it’s mixed with Iron… Miry Clay changes the meaning.

    The value of the Metals decrease…
    GOLD – Kingship, Kingdom Glory
    SILVER – Redemption, the Price of a Soul
    BRASS – Symbol of sin, Judgement of sin, Disobedience
    IRON – Strength, Inflexible Rule, Crushing
    Clay – Wicked or Evil

    True clay, which is a highly aluminous (luminous) soil, is found in certain localities in Palestine.

    Luminous –
    1. full of or shedding light; bright or shining, especially in the dark

    Clay, Brick
    Psalms 69:2, 14, 15
    Isaiah 41:25; 57:20
    Jeremiah 38:22
    Habakkuk 2:6, 7

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