Daniel’s Four Beasts

Every prophecy teacher has an opinion of what Daniel’s four beasts represent. Some consider them ancient kingdoms only, some consider them modern. What does the Bible say?


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Daniel’s Four Beasts

Prior to AD 2000, nearly every commentary on Daniel considered these beasts to be Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome (in that order). After the publication of Joel Richardson’s Islamic Antichrist and Mideast Beast, many prophecy teachers have now revised their opinions to replace “Rome” with “Islamic Caliphate” as the fourth beast. Then in 2013, Mark Davidson published “Daniel Revisited” and proposed the theory that these beasts will be modern countries of Iraq, Iran, a Sunni confederation, and the Beast Empire. We will explore both of these opinions in this article, as well as other theories that the beasts are the United States, Britain, Russia, Germany, and the United Nations.

In our last article, we presented the parallels between Dan. 2 and Dan. 7 in the following table:

Dan. 2 Dan. 7 Commonalities
Head of Gold Lion with Eagles Wings Head leads the body Dan. 2:38; Lion is King of the Beasts Dan. 7:4
Chest and Arms of Silver Bear Bear has “ribs” in mouth Dan. 7:5; Chest has ribs
Belly and thighs of Bronze Leopard Bronze Kingdom rules over earth Dan. 2:39; Leopard is given dominion Dan. 7:6
Legs of Iron Fourth Terrifying Beast Iron crushes Dan. 2:40; Fourth Beast crushes   Dan. 7:7
Ten Toes Ten Horns Ten Toes on “feet” Dan. 2:33, Toes called “kings” Dan. 2:44; Beast with Ten Horns tramples under “feet” Dan. 7:7, Horns called kings Dan. 7:24
Stone and Mountain Kingdom Given to Jesus and Saints Kingdom will never be destroyed Dan. 2:44; Kingdom is everlasting Kingdom Dan. 7:24

 

The parallels between the visions are extraordinary. There can be no doubt the visions are looking at the same six empires. We now must only identify the kingdoms .

The First Three Beasts

These beasts are found in Daniel 7:

The four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea. And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another. The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it. And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, ‘Arise, devour much meat!’ After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. (Dan. 7:2-7 NASB, emphasis mine)

All the beasts arise out of the sea. We are told in Rev.17 that the sea or “waters” are “peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.”

The lion with eagle’s wings is a perfect picture Ancient Babylon. Jer. 4:6-7 is speaking of Babylon and the prophet calls it a lion, “A lion has gone up from his thicket, and a destroyer of nations has set out; he has gone out from his place to make your land a waste. Your cities will be ruins without inhabitant.” In Ezek. 17:1-24, the prophet tells a parable of two eagles and a Cedar tree. The eagles are the kings of Egypt and Babylon and the Cedar is Israel. Combining these symbols, we have a lion with eagle’s wings. In Ezekiel’s parable the eagle uses his wings to fly to the top of the Cedar and carry off branches. This is a picture of Nebuchadnezzar carrying off the King of Israel and his royal court. If the wings of the lion are “plucked” off, this is a symbol of the lion being defeated and no longer being able to invade.

In Dan. 4, we see a dream of Nebuchadnezzar that was interpreted by Daniel. In that dream, Nebuchadnezzar was given a “beast’s mind” (Dan. 4:16) and his hair and nails grew to be like an eagle’s feathers and claws (Dan. 4:33). At the end of a seven-year period, Nebuchadnezzar’s mind was restored to him, and of course he cut his hair and nails. This is a picture of the lion being given a human mind.

The bear that is raised up on one side is a picture of Persia. The Persian Empire at that time was the empire of the Medes and the Persians, but the Persians had become the stronger faction, thus the bear was “raised up” on one side showing the strength of the Persians. The three ribs were the three kingdoms the Persians had conquered: Babylon, Lydia, and Egypt.

The leopard with four wings and four heads is the Hellenistic Empire founded by Alexander the Great. After his death, it is said to have split into four sub-kingdoms, thus the four heads. These empires correspond to the first three kingdoms of the statue of four metals seen in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream (Dan. 2): the head of gold (Babylon), the chest of silver (Medo-Persia), and the abdomen of bronze (Hellenistic).

All three of these beasts first appear in the Book of Hosea, written two hundred years before Daniel, which foretells that these beasts will tear Israel apart:

So I will be like a lion to them; like a leopard I will lie in wait by the wayside.  I will encounter them like a bear robbed of her cubs, and I will tear open their chests; there I will also devour them like a lioness, as a wild beast would tear them. (Hos. 13:7 NASB, emphasis mine)

We have already learned that the final Beast Empire will be a combination of the Babylonian Kingdom, the Medo-Persian Kingdom, and the Hellenistic Kingdom.

From this we can say with assurance that the first three beasts are at least partially fulfilled by Babylon, Persia, and Greece. This does not preclude a modern fulfillment as well, but we cannot say these beasts are strictly end of days Kingdoms. They are historic as well.

Saying these beasts are the United States, the UN, Britain, Russia, or other modern western powers, however, is just wrong in my opinion. There is zero biblical support for that position. The land masses of Babylon, Persia, and Greece are clearly and biblically defined in this prophecy.

The Fourth Terrifying Beast

Daniel’s primary interest was, and ours should be, with the final, fourth Beast, however. It is this Beast that will be led by the Antichrist, will conquer Jerusalem, and will persecute the Jews and Christians unto death.

A fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.  While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn (the little horn) possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts. (Dan. 7:7-8 NASB, clarification and emphasis mine)

First, he is identified by his heads and his horns. From the above passage we see It has ten horns, and from the following passage we see it has seven heads:

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.  And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion.  (Rev. 13:1-2 NASB, emphasis mine)

We can also identify the fourth beast, “the Beast,” by its actions:

A fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. (Dan. 7:7 NASB, emphasis mine)

Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these (the other kingdoms) in pieces. (Dan 2:40 NASB, emphasis mine)

 Joel Richardson has used this verse (Dan. 2:40) to eliminate Rome as a potential candidate as the fourth kingdom (the fourth beast.) This passage clearly states that the fourth kingdom will crush the other three. Since Rome never defeated Persia and only occupied Babylon for a single year, it must be eliminated from contention as the fourth kingdom (Beast). Joel’s book Mideast Beast also contains numerous other proofs as the identity of the Islamic Caliphate as this kingdom and I refer you there to continue your study.

Future Fulfillment Implications

We have now established the historic identity of Daniel’s four beasts: Babylon, Persia, Greece, and the Islamic Caliphate. We know from Rev. 13 and 17 that the Islamic Caliphate will receive a fatal head wound (in 1924) and will rise in the last days as the kingdom of the Antichrist. From this we know the fourth beast will be present in the end times. What about the other beasts? What is there fate?

Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time [literally “season and a time”] (Dan. 7:11-12)

This is a very interesting passage. It seems to imply that the Lion, Bear and Leopard will live on longer than the Islamic Caliphate (the fourth beast) that will be burned in the lake of fire after the return of Christ.  If that is true, they are still existing in today’s world.

In conversations I’ve had with Joel Richardson about this verse, his opinion of it (in 2014) was that the “lives of Babylon, Persia, and Greece” (their influence) were allowed to live on for a while after they were conquered thousands of years ago. In his opinion, however, they aren’t still with us today.

I am not sure I agree with Joel. First in Rev. 13:2 we are told the forth beast incorporates the other beasts into it: “And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion.” Second, Dan. 7: 11-12 seems to imply a chronology that the Fourth Beast is killed first, but the other Beasts are allowed to live on for a “season and a time.”

Mark Davidson has proposed in his book Daniel Revisited that the first three beasts have an end time fulfillment as Iraq, Iran, and a Sunni Confederacy of four nations (Turkey, Egypt, Syria, and Albania). This viewpoint certainly permits a more clear reading of Rev. 13: 2 and Dan. 7:11-12. Mark supports this viewpoint by stating that Iraq has already fulfilled Dan. 7:4 “The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind (literally “heart”) also was given to it.” Mark claims that Iraq (the land mass of historic Babylon) under Saddam Hussein was defeated by the USA (“wings plucked”) and made into a democracy (given a human heart). But is this a clear reading of the passage? It is certainly much less elegant than the interpretation above about ancient Babylon. The symbol of “wings” come from Ezek. 17 and demonstrate a conquering of Israel that Saddam never accomplished. The giving of a human “heart” speaks of Dan. 4 where it appears Nebuchadnezzar repented and became a “believer” in YHWH. The formation of a democracy in Iraq seems a pale stretch for saying it fulfills the giving of a human heart as if the Iranian dominated government there is any more human than Saddam’s.

So although I agree with Mark’s interpretation of Dan. 8, extending it to Dan. 7 doesn’t seem correct; it is not impossible, nor is it dangerous interpretation,  but it seems off in several major regards.

Could the Lion be speaking of ISIS instead of Iraq? Yes, it could. We will have to continue to view world events to see if a more elegant fulfillment of prophecy takes place with ISIS than Saddam’s Iraq; but I doubt it will.  It seems that Iran will invade and defeat ISIS and I can’t imagine them being given a “human heart” at that point, but we shall see.

Dan. 7: 11-12

So how do we interpret Dan. 7:12, that the dominion of the first three beasts are taken away but their lives are extended for a season and a time?

After Jesus returns, Islam (the fourth beast) will be destroyed. The land masses of the Lion, Bear, and Leopard will still exist, however. Upon Jesus’s immediate arrival upon earth, there will be much work for us to accomplish. The cities will lie in ruins, the Temple will be desecrated, and Jesus’s new government will need to be instituted world-wide. Although some think Jesus will snap his fingers and this will be accomplished, I do not. I see it as a millennial long process which will be delegated to us!

Especially within the first year, there will need to be systems in place to support the survivors of the Great Tribulation. Will those systems be “countries?” I think they will; and those countries may include the Lion, Bear and Leopard.  Then when Jesus’s government is ready to administer the region, the Lion, Bear, and Leopard will be disbanded. Interestingly this period is called a “season and a time.” We know from “time, times and half a time” that a time is a year. Is a season 3 months? Maybe. So this period of a year or so may be an administrative period. At least that is my current opinion.

53 thoughts on “Daniel’s Four Beasts”

  1. Nelson, the fact that Nebuchadnezzar’s image is wiped out the instant it is struck by the Christ rock is evident form the narrative:

    “Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: (NOTICE THAT NO PLACE WAS FOUND FOR THEM, UNLIKE THREE OF Dan 7 BEASTS) and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.”

    This is Christ’s return, at which point he puts down all other authority spoken of by Daniel in his preamble as being the primary meaning of the image.

    That is confirmed by Dan 7, were it says the other beasts dominion was taken away. But they were preserved for a time and season. It is during that millennium period that Christ’s kingdom grows to fill the whole earth, culminating with Rev 20:8 (the time and season).

    But before you say, so you’re admitting the beasts and the image are the same. I am not. I am reiterating the fact that whilst the image is about man’s/Satan’s authority over the world, the beasts are modern day kingdoms that exert those different forms of authority alluded to by the image (Babylonian autocratic, Greek democratic). Three of those beasts continue to exist during the millennium, but under Christ’s authority.

    Historically, when one king conquered the kingdom of another, authority changed hands immediately, but it took time for the new king to stamp that authority with his laws and administration. The millennium will be no different.

    1. Phil, you make a mistake that many make; not looking at the full counsel of God. If taken on its own, Dan. 2:35 COULD be interpreted that the destruction of the metals happens immediately. It doesn’t say that, however. Rather, later on in Dan. 2:44, the process by which it happens is explained. When you look at the complete picture, only then is the truth revealed. Dan. 2:35 probably does mean that the authority of the metals is lost, just as Dan. 7 says, but that the organizational structures remains for a season and a time.

      We are not told what a “season and a time” is; however, since in Daniel “time, times, and half a time” is 3.5 years, I would assume that a “time” is one year (in Daniel’s reckoning) and a season is 3 months. So to me, the biblical approach to a “season and a time” is 15 months, not a 1000 years. This makes perfect sense to me. When Jesus returns he will not miraculously rebuild the earth, but rather Christians will be tasked with the rebuilding and ruling and reigning. This will take time. 15 months seems a reasonable time that existing governments provide organization (without authority) until Jesus’s Millennial government takes over.

      1. Nelson. You said: “Dan. 2:35 probably does mean that the authority of the metals is lost, just as Dan. 7 says, but that the organizational structures remains for a season and a time.”

        Isn’t that more or less what I just said?
        Authority destroyed immediately. Organisational structures, and I think maybe a certain amount of support for the ideologies on which they were based may continue, and eventually be used by Satan to gather support for his last attack.

        I never said the ‘season and time’ was the whole 1000 year millennium. I said it was that spoken of in Rev 20:8 (I should have said 20:7-8) which may very well be your 15 months. But that’s the time Satan is released and mounts his final rebellion. The previous 998.? years is taken up with the rebuilding ruling and reigning.

        1. The point of this discussion is that Dan. 7:12 is not a proof text that the Beasts of Dan. 7 are different than the metals of Dan. 2. I think we now agree on this one point. This discussion doesn’t prove their the same, but it supports it. The article this is attached to provides the proof they are the same.

  2. Nelson. If you took the time to read the thread of comments below your article, you would have seen that I had read it when you first published it.
    Your snipe is just as unwarranted as your dirty trick.

    Lets take a look at the facts that will have been used by the scholars to determine the meaning of Dan 7:17…

    Firstly, I have given a brief overview of how we originally got the past/present tense interpretation from Gill here… https://danielsealbroken.wordpress.com/revived-roman-empire-or-revived-caliphate/

    Gill’s interpretation was unmitigated garbage. He used linguistic gymnastics to force fit a translation on the original text that was grammatically and historically ignorant.

    Today we see you attempting to force fit an enigmatic translation onto the same phrase “shall arise”, even though it’s used in the interpretive part of Daniel’s vision, and so should be expected to be unambiguous.

    Are there other similar uses of the phrase? Yes. The very same phrase is used in Dan 7:24 were it cannot be interpreted to be anything other than future tense.

    Are there any other factors that demand a future tense interpretation? Yes, Dan 7:11-12 tells us that the first three beasts exist contemporarily with the fourth.

    “I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. “
    This fact lends weight to the interpretation of the Dan 7:7 phrase “before it” as meaning ‘in the presense of’, rather than in the past.

    Did you get that? They exist at the same time when the fourth beast is destroyed. Now tell us when that is. And tell us how that fits your Babylon, Persia, Greece, Caliphate interpretation.

    When we read the entire prophecy, and its interpretation, taking these facts into account it becomes obvious that it is all about future kingdoms. In fact there is actualy grammatical support in the words of Dan7:7 for the fourth beast existing before the others. This fact is dealt with in my book.

    1. Phil, I notice you said you read the comments, but I asked you to read the ARTICLE to which this comment is attached. It demonstrates that the four kingdoms of Dan. 2 and the four Beasts of Dan. 7 are the same. Once this is understood, then a proper interpretation of Dan. 7 can be made. Notice in Dan. 2:44, the four kingdoms are broken into pieces and consumed by the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus. Therefore, God considers Babylon, Persia, and Greece as still existing now and they won’t be consumed until the Millennial Kingdom is established. So it is not surprising that Dan. 7 is parallel to this! The Kingdoms are the same, thus their fate is the same. This is just one more proof that the Kingdoms are identical.

      Unfortunately, your interpretation of “before it” holds zero weight. Kingdoms aren’t animate objects that they can present themselves “before” another. This is a tortured interpretation when the simple meaning of before (prior to) makes perfect sense.

      1. Nelson, read what I said again.

        “If you took the time to read the thread of comments below your article, you would have seen that I had read it (THE ARTICLE) when you first published it.”

        Now pay equal attention to reading what Daniel says. The preamble is important because it tells us what he is talking about.

        Dan 2:37-38 “Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

        Daniel is speaking about authority here. Not about the size or wealth of the kingdoms. Not even about their military power. He is speaking only of the fact that Nebuchadnezzar was an absolute ruler, above the law. The following rulers of Persia, Greece, and Rome were under the law of their kingdoms. We know this from biblical and historical records, and because these kingdoms that followed Babylon were greater in every respect. So Daniel can’t be speaking of anything other than their ruler’s power. And for those who have eyes to see. This has a connection to the man of lawlessness.

        We also know that none of the first three exist anymore as kingdoms. So it can’t be their physical entities that are shattered by the rock of Christ. Daniel therefore has to be speaking metaphorically of their influence on mankind. Their style of government. Democracy for example.

        So in the days of which kings is Dan 2:44 speaking of? Well it can’t possibly be speaking of Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Alexander etc, can it? It can only be speaking of the kings of the fourth kingdom which embodies attributes of the first three, like democracy etc.

        The first three beasts of Daniel 7 are not a repeat of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. They can’t be because they physically exist at the same time as each other right up to and after the Antichrist is destroyed. Nebuchadnezzar’s image is sequential, and is totally wiped out. there is no inference of any of the kingdoms depicted being “prolonged for a season and time”.

        Dan 7:12 “As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.”

        You ducked it in your last comment. Lets hear it this time. Where do we see the Babylonian, Persian, and Greek empires in the world today?

        You said: “Unfortunately, your interpretation of “before it” holds zero weight. Kingdoms aren’t animate objects that they can present themselves “before” another. This is a tortured interpretation when the simple meaning of before (prior to) makes perfect sense.”

        That statement demonstrates your serious lack of understanding. The language used is metaphorical.

        1. “The first three beasts of Daniel 7 are not a repeat of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. They can’t be because they physically exist at the same time as each other right up to and after the Antichrist is destroyed. Nebuchadnezzar’s image is sequential, and is totally wiped out. there is no inference of any of the kingdoms depicted being “prolonged for a season and time” – PM

          This is a very good conversation Phil. First, let’s examine your “sequential” theory. Please note and acknowledge that all the metals exist until the end.

          Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff (Dan. 2:35)

          Even though the “authority of Babylon” existed and perished long ago, the “gold” is crushed at the end just as the iron and clay. So these metals are existing right now. Authority cannot be it. Form of government “could be” what each material symbolizes.

          Later on in the explanation part of the prophecy, we see that it is the Millennial Kingdom itself that will destroy the other kingdoms:

          In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. (Dan. 2:44)

          So these other kingdoms (and they are called kingdoms) are destroyed by the Millennial Kingdom. Might this be a sequential process and some are allowed to live for a season and a time (which could be a matter of months)? Yes-you must admit this is possible. It takes seven years to burn the tools of war from Armageddon. The administration and rebuilding during the Millennial Kingdom will take a lot of time. It won’t happen immediately like many think. Notice that the stone that strikes the feet of the statue is small at first, but grows to fill the whole earth. It represents something that takes time.

          Also you rightly mention “In the days of those kings.” These are the ten toes and ten kings of the final Beast.

          You ask where I see Babylon, Persia and the Hellenistic Kingdoms today? I see the land masses these empires represented and I see human governments, but not much else. Certainly in the form of “Beasts” these might also represent demonic forces behind the various empires as mentioned in Dan. 10 as the “prince of Persia, etc.” However, the Bible clearly states that the Kingdoms exist right up until the end. We cannot discount this very clear teaching. So these Kingdoms exist. Exactly how I’m not sure. We can guess, but in all the commentaries I’ve read, I’m not convinced by anyone’s opinion completely.

          1. Nelson. You said: “So these other kingdoms (and they are called kingdoms) are destroyed by the Millennial Kingdom. Might this be a sequential process and some are allowed to live for a season and a time (which could be a matter of months)? Yes-you must admit this is possible.”

            No! The scenario described in Daniel 2 is one of total and immediate destruction. The one described in Daniel 7 leaves some of the actors, including the bear/Russia for the final battle described in Revelation 20:8.

            You said: “Authority cannot be it. Form of government “could be” what each material symbolizes.”

            Yes authority can be it. That is what Daniel refers to in his preamble. It’s the bookend scenario. Nebuchadnezzar was a king whose authority was above the law of his kingdom. The Antichrist will be the same…The man of lawlessness.
            And guess what? Such a man exists today. And his kingdom is forming.

            You said: “It takes seven years to burn the tools of war from Armageddon.”

            You are referring to Ezekiel’s Gog Magog war, which isn’t Armageddon.

            Regarding the Babylonian, Persian and Hellenistic kingdoms. You say: “However, the Bible clearly states that the Kingdoms exist right up until the end.

            It doesn’t say that. And it can’t say that. Because if it did, it would be wrong by virtue of the fact that they don’t exist. And it’s no good switching to spiritual explanations to counter the obvious because Daniel spoke of them as physical empires that ruled over his people. The princes of Persia and Grecia certainly don’t rule over Israel today. And there’s no chance of that happening outside of the fantasies of Mark Davidson.

            You say you are not convinced by any of the commentaries you have read. I sent you my one a long time ago. Try reading it.

          2. First of all Phil, I will read your commentary on this, but I don’t have it.

            However, you make several errors in this comment. Hopefully they are not in the commentary. The first is that in Dan. 2, the destruction of gold, silver, bronze, iron and clay is immediate. it most certainly is not. First notice in Dan. 2:34 that the stone struck the feet of the statue. This occurs in the end times so it is yet future. Second notice in Dan. 2:35 we see that the stone becomes a mountain (the Millennial Kingdom). The word becomes is HAVAH which literally means came to pass and implies time. Then in Dan. 2:44 we see this Millennial Kingdom is what truly destroys the other Kingdoms. Thus a season (and a time) passes as the Millennial Kingdom is established.

            The gold, silver, bronze and iron all exist right up until the end. This is made clear in all the verses above AND they are referred to as Kingdoms in Dan. 2:44, so sorry, Phil but the Kingdoms do exists right up until the end. I don’t know how, but that is the clear reading of Scripture. Faith is believing it even if we don’t know how.

  3. Okay, I am happy to move the conversation from http://www.thegospelintheendtimes.com/10-lost-tribes-of-israel/god-divorce-northern-kingdom/#comments
    to this thread if you insist.

    I am not happy that you edited out a key point of my argument in an attempt to misrepresent me. But I guess I should expect those sort of dirty tricks!

    The example of your daughters is an enigmatic word play, of the like used by Shakespeare not God. Dan 7:17 is an interpretation, so by definition must be precise and unambiguous.

    Read Dan 7:24 and tell me how you can apply your daughter analogy to that. It’s the same words used!

    Now apply that rule of consistency which you have so often called upon when you think it supports your argument.

    1. Thank you for moving this discussion to the proper thread so those who are interested in Dan. 7 can read it.

      Our discussion centered on Dan. 7:17, “He said to me, “Those four great creatures that you saw are four kings that shall rise from the world.* (Idiomatic Aramaic expression for shall rise from the earth)” (Aramaic Bible)

      Your contention is that this verse can ONLY imply that all four creatures must arise in a time future to Daniel’s vision. My contention (and proper interpretation of grammar) is that when given a list of events, the future tense can be used to say all the events will happen in the future OR it can say all the events will finalize in the future, but some may have taken place in the past. This is different than the future tense being used for a single event. For instance you can say “47 US presidents will complete their terms before the nation crumbles.”

      As I stated to you earlier CONTEXT determines the meaning, not just the word used. The same words and tenses are not always consistently used; context determines the meaning. That is why I recommend reading this article (which you refused to do) to see how context shows Dan. 2 and Dan. 7 are the same Kingdoms.

      Now, can there be a future second fulfillment of the 4 Beasts of Daniel 7? Yes, but they have to mirror Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Islam.

  4. Nelson,
    Gavin Finley wrote article about Brexit. In it he defends the position that the four beasts all end time nations. The lion is Great Britain; the wings plucked from the lion that then stands as a man (USA); the bear (Russia); the leopard (Germany). The fourth is led by the AC. According to Finley, this is based on the hebrew word “qudam”.

    He wrote…How do we know this? The Hebrew word “qodam” for the word “before” in Daniel 7:7 is the clincher here. A simple Hebrew word search of this word. “qodam”, Strongs Concordance word number H6925, is very instructive and can leave no doubt about what the text is showing us. The word “qodam”, translated somewhat ambiguously in the KJV and other translations as “before”, does NOT mean before as in a previous time. Rather it actually means “in the presence of”. And so a somewhat better rendering of the Daniel 7:7 text might be,

    7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts THAT WERE THERE IN IT’S PRESENCE); and it had ten horns.
    So all these beast powers we see in Daniel 7 were prophesied to be contemporaneous and in existence together at the same time. The first three (actually four), were seen by Daniel to be “in the presence of” the fourth beast of the New World Order. This fourth beast with the ten horns is a final global power of great strength yet to appear on the stage of world history. (http://endtimepilgrim.org/brexit.htm)

    Of course I researched Strongs with qodam…and he is correct.

    1. Thanks Ken. I would expect better from our endtime pilgrim friend. Daniel 7’s original text is Aramaic not Hebrew, so the precise Hebrew Word is important but not conclusive. The Greek in the Septuagint for that same word “before” is EMPROSTHEN which means “in front of” or “before the face of.” So this is a similar meaning to the Hebrew. The Aramaic is translated “before” but I couldn’t find the actual Aramaic word. So the idea of the beasts being contemporaneous of each other is definitely possible.

      What is also possible is an end time recapitulation of the the four metals of Dan. 2 since the Beasts are the same as the metals as shown in this article. This would be similar to Mark Davidson’s theory that the modern beasts are Iraq, Iran, Turkey then the Beast Empire. I can see that as possible.

      As far as the USA, Britain, Russia, etc. That is “headline” prophecy and this is where I draw the line. The scripture quotes from Dan. 2 are too pervasive to discount. The metals = the beasts. Choosing the national animals of these western powers totally ignores the vast scriptural quotes and references throughout. Also Rev. 13 clearly states the final Beast will be a combination of the Lion, the Bear and the Leopard. This is a strange grouping of nations without France, Poland, etc. What sort of nation has these gaps between its land masses? Finally, scripture is Jerusalem centric and Middle East centric. All the Biblical prophets call out the nations around Israel by name in numerous prophecies. Europe is no where to be seen.

  5. I have not heard ANY Bible scholars change their opinion on the fourth beast…..the idea that ISIS or Islam is the fourth beast is ridiculous…..the Roman Empire is/was the fourth beast……do not confuse people with your silly theories

  6. Nelson,

    I would like to add a quote from Sir Robert Anderson in his book “The Coming Prince”, were in the appendixes he tries to elaborate through some arguments the idea that the entire vision of Daniel 7 may have a future reference. One of the arguments I think is very valid, in which he says:

    “While the symbolism of the sixth verse seems at first sight to point definitely to the Grecian Empire, it will appear on a closer examination that at its advent the leopard had four wings and four heads. This was its primary and normal condition, and it was in this condition that dominion was given to it. This surely is very different from what Daniel 8:8 describes, and what the history of Alexander’s Empire realized, viz., the rise of a single power, which in its decadence continued to exist in a divided state.”

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

    1. This is a very good point as well Perry, one I hadn’t considered. Luckily the implications are dual fulfillment/single fulfillment are minor. There are enough arguments on both sides of the issue to make a good case either way. Fortunately, prophetically there isn’t a great deal riding on who is correct.

  7. Nelson and others,

    To make it short, I believe there are different perspectives of the prophecies in the book of Daniel (Dan 2, 7, 8, 9, 11-12): an exclusive historical perspective, however with incomplete fulfilment, a historical-eschatological perspective and an exclusive eschatological perspective. The historical perspective is a perspective of those in the generation of Daniel and the following ones until the time of Antiochus Epiphanes. This historical perspective leave many prophecies unfulfilled. The historical-eschatological perspective is the perspective of the majority futurists of today, either with a Roman end-time theory or with an Islamic end-time paradigm. The exclusive eschatological perspective is somewhat new and currently under development by many of us. I will leave this here for now, It will take much to explain.

    Said that, I believe there is an exclusive eschatological perspective and application of the vision in Daniel 7, meaning that the four beast are kingdoms of modern times that will culminate with the coming of the Antichrist, very much in line with the other visions in Daniel 8 and 11. I tend to see the four kingdoms much like described by Mark Davidson (Lion: Iraq; Bear: Iran; Leopard: 4 nation coalition or confederacy led by Turkey; Dreadful and Terrible Beast: Revived Islamic Caliphate of the Antichrist). One of the main reasons to understand there is an end-time application for the four beasts is the judgement set upon the first three kingdoms in Dan 7:12. As you have pointed out in the previous post on this subject, Daniel 7:9-10 is a scene from the heavenly court, were thrones were set up, the court sat and books were open. In Dan 7:26, the court sat down for judgement and decreed or deliberated that the dominion of the forth beast and the little horn were taken away, slain, consumed, destroyed given to the burning fire as in Dan 7:11. The heavenly court observed the actions, compared to the books and then deliberated the fate of the forth beast and the little horn. In the same manner, the same heavenly court will deliberate the fate of the first three beasts. Dan 7:12 says that as for the rest of the beasts (a deliberation from the same court decision), their dominion was taken away, however granted an extension to their lives for a season and a time. Therefore, It would be more reasonable to assume that the first three beasts (lion, bear and leopard) are kingdoms living within the end-times time-frame with the forth beast kingdom and wave the same court decision during the same time-period, rather than assume the first three beast are kingdoms way gone and destroyed many centuries ago. The decision of taking away of the dominion of the Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Grecian Empires seems to not be the same court as described in Dan 7:9-10, 26.

    To see the first three beasts as ancient kingdoms and the forth an end-time kingdom is to say that the court decision of Dan 7:12 is different than the court decision of Dan 7:11, 26. However, the text indicates rather the contrary, it is the same court decision, therefore, all four kingdoms pertain to the same end-time period.

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

    1. This is a well articulated point Perry. Certainly Dan. 7:12 is the verse upon which the future expression of the Lion, Bear, and Leopard rises or falls. Dominion means “sovereignty or control.” And I agree with you that the placement of Dan. 7:12 after the heavenly court scene of Dan. 7:9-10 places this loss of sovereign control as part of the judgment. Naturally after the return of Christ, he is in control. What I’m not sure of however, like I stated in the article, is whether this necessitates modern kingdoms or not. It could simply be land masses. This land mass was once occupied by the ancient kingdoms and now is occupied by the modern inheritors (the Ram and the Goat). The fact that Gabriel uses different animal names for the modern kingdoms in Dan. 8 and the fact that Iraq is specifically excluded from Dan. 8 are both clues this may be true.

      However, the net result of it one way or the other is probably zero. And I think that is the important take away, no matter whether the Lion, Bear, and Leopard are past only or have a future component, really doesn’t matter. The “history written in advance” in Dan. 8 shows us what we need to know about these future events.

  8. Since Hebrew is read from right to left, do you think your picture with the first beast on the left, depicts what Daniel saw? I point this out to call attention to the importance of the original cultural context for accurate interpretation. We must try to understand it through the original author’s eyes, not merely through “sense and reference.”

  9. Nelson,

    First of all, I’d like to say your explanation of the wings of the lion was excellent and has enhanced my understanding.

    One thing I think we must always maintain as we expound different theories about end-time prophecies is the infallibility of the scriptures. God is infallible and therefore His Word is infallible too but we, men, are very fallible. I think when we ignore scriptural positions for our own then deceive ourselves.

    I believe “the season” refers to the thousand year rule of our Lord. I also believe that the Lion is Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. The wings being plucked and the beast made to stand like a man speaks of Iraq’s defeat, the removal of the dictatorship and it’s ability to consume it’s neighbours. I think there may be a small similarity with the 7th head of the beast- which is the empire immediately preceding AC’s.

    Consider Daniel 2 v 43
    ” And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves WITH THE SEED OF MEN: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay”.

    Daniel 7 v 4
    “The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon THE FEET AS A MAN, and a man’s heart was given to it”.

    I think each of those beasts are signposts and they “arise” one after the other. Saddam’s fall gave rise to Iran (Saddam was a regional check to Iran’s ambitions) which was able to co-opt Shia Iraq (the majority of Iraq) into it’s sphere of influence and break out into the larger Middle-East (Syria, Yemen, Gaza etc). I disagree with Mr Davidson on some points as do you.

    I think Mr Richardson’s thesis has a fundamental problem in that it’s foundation is in direct conflict with Revelations 17v10.

    God Bless

  10. Nelson.

    Whether you prefer the phrase “shall arise” or “arise from the earth” the fact remains that what is spoken of is something that will happen in the future.

    Don’t you think the scholars who produced the 20 Bible translations you deleted form my post where aware of the translation complexities? The English word they all chose (“arise”) is on its own, future tense. If there was any justification in expressing the Aramaic in the past or present tense they would have used the words arisen or arose.

    It would not be a ‘prophecy’ if it were speaking of something that already existed. God doesn’t prove he is Lord by speaking of the past or present. Isaiah 46:10.

    I am not hanging anything on that one phrase alone. I have just given you a second reason that proves those 20 or so Bible scholars where right. And there are many more. You on the other hand, come at it from your modern day “Beast From The East” approach, and try to force fit the scripture.

    And Daniel 8 can’t be understood separate from 7. They are part and parcel of the same prophetic revelation.

    1. Dan. 7 and Dan. 8 are related in that the both discuss the career of the “little horn.” There is no dispute about that. Here are some reasons that the first three beasts of Dan. 7 “might” not be related to Dan. 8.

      * If the Ram = the Bear why aren’t they given the same name? Scripture “spreads breakcrumbs” throughout so we can identify things that are the same (ie, the “little horn” is the same in both visions). Using a different animal name in Dan. 8 is a big clue they first three beasts might not be the same.
      * When Dan. 8’s vision was given Babylon had not yet fallen. Why wasn’t Babylon made part of the vision.

      1. Nelson.

        You said: “If the Ram = the Bear why aren’t they given the same name? Scripture “spreads breadcrumbs” throughout so we can identify things that are the same (ie, the “little horn” is the same in both visions). Using a different animal name in Dan. 8 is a big clue they first three beasts might not be the same.

        Well at least we agree on that point. I make some of my case in the link below:
        https://danielsealbroken.wordpress.com/a-breakthrough-in-eschatology/

      2. All Glory to God

        Nelson says: When Dan. 8’s vision was given Babylon had not yet fallen. Why wasn’t Babylon made part of the vision?

        Curtis says: Nelson…this is a brilliant question you ask here. I just saw it today and it got me thinking. This is what came to me

        I think the Angel answers your question

        Consider Daniel 8 v 19
        “And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be IN THE LAST END OF INDIGNATION: for at the time appointed THE END shall be”.(KJV)

        Notice the Angel speaks about the vision being for the end. We know that this vision has been fulfilled with Antiochus IV. The Angel is telling us that there will be a 2nd fulfillment.

        This 2nd fulfillment will involve the modern successors of the Persian and Greek Empires. The conflict between these two will give rise to the anti-Christ. The Lion (Babylon) in Daniel 7 is simply a signpost in the road-map (Daniel 7) to help us recognize when this prophecy (Daniel 8) is about to be re-fulfilled. Daniel 7 informs us that when we see the defeat of a future successor to Babylon leading directly to the rise of a future successor to Persia which in turn leads to the rise a future successor to the Grecian Empire then we know that this is the time of the end.

        Consider Daniel 8 v 23
        “And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up”. (KJV)

        Here the Angel tell us that the rise of the future successor to the Grecian will lead to the emergence of AC. AC will be a leader of this kingdom. This is where Daniel 8 connects to Daniel 7.

        Remember end-time prophecies are different parts of the SAME STORY or the SAME STORY told in a different way.

        God Bless

          1. All Glory to God

            Nelson,

            Iraq which in the same area as Babylon therefore IMO is the modern successor to Babylon. Remember the name Iraq would have no sense to Daniel in 500BC so the name of it’s predecessor (Babylon) is used.

            My sense is that Babylon (Iraq) plays no major role in the end time events. The main players are the Grecian Empire (Turkey) and the Persian Empire (Iran). Turkey, primarily because it will produce the anti-Christ. This is why Daniel 8 is only concerned about these two and in particular Turkey

            The problem is Turkey and Iran have had conflicts and rivalry spanning many centuries under different empires. I believe God uses Babylon (Iraq) as a marker to point us to the particular clash that will lead to the end of the age. Daniel 7 is the road-map

            Why so? you may ask. Note that since the fall of Babylon in Daniel’s time, no power from that Babylonian land mass has risen to challenge for dominance in Middle East until Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. Saddam’s rise and fall is used simply to tell us when we are on the road to the end.

            God Bless

  11. Some of the controversy over the first beast stems from the time the vision was given. It was given in the first year of Beltshazzars reign. This is roughly 10 years before the Babylonian empire fell. Nebucaddezzar was long dead and gone. Some say ”how could this be Nebu’s Babylon when he was already dead. ” It’s a valid point. But it still does not totally prove that the Lion was not Ancient Babylon. Babylon had not fallen yet. The Lion with a mans heart may just be a reference point to Nebucaddezzars Babylon even though he was dead. We have to remember the visions were very confusing to Daniel. Hope this helps.

  12. most daniel 7 already fulfilled last thing is the beast/islam to be destroyed. isis didn’t fulfilled dan 7 but rev 17 when islam destroy mystery babylon. regarding antichrist it is clearly allah, he build his own temple (al agsa mosque) ‘sit’ there for 1200 years, allah is ‘the man'(male deity) bible talking about.

  13. I’m not sold on the Caliphate being the antichrist kingdom. I agree that he will be from the area of ancient Assyria (e.g. referred to as the Assyrian). I think he will incorporate the major religions and political kingdoms somehow. He will not honor the god of his fathers, but a god of fortresses, a strange/foreign god. The shared commonality of Christians, Muslims, and Jews is being descendants of Abraham (eg. jacob & Esau, Isaac and Ishmael). The God of Abraham is the Creator but we all know that muslims honor muhammad, christians do Jesus, and Jews are still waiting for their messiah. So the antichrist will honor a god prior to Abraham most likely. This is where mystery babylon comes into play. The antichrist will be in a partnership with mystery for a short time. Then he helps destroy her. I think the AC will honor the god Nimrod until he finally demands his own worship.
    Jesus says a country that is against itself cannot stand. Sunni and Shia will cause the demise of the caliphate. Even today there is no love lost between the Arabs and the others. This is my understanding from study.
    I like some of Richardson’s thoughts, some of Davidson’s, and most of Nelson’s –even some of Montgomery’s. But we can only watch and look for the signs.

  14. Some time ago I pointed out to you the fact that Daniel 7:17 was future tense. I also pointed out the fact that the scholars who produced the following 20 versions of the Bible agreed on that same translation . . . Unless of course you are Joel Richardson, and you meet some unknown Bible scholars who have a private interpretation for you!

    1. Phil, it is good to hear from you. You don’t need the contacts of a Joel Richardson to help understand this verse. Remember that Dan. 7 was originally written in Aramaic not Hebrew, so when look at English translations you are looking at a translation of a translation. Here is a nice link to the Aramaic http://www.v-a.com/bible/supporters/daniel_7.html You will see that 7:17 says “shall arise” in the translation of the Aramaic as well, but when you check out the note at the bottom of the page, you learn that the words “shall arise from the earth” are an Aramaic idiomatic expression that means “arise from the earth” not “shall arise.” Because the Hebrew scholars who translated the MT version were translating an idiomatic expression, I can see why they may have experienced tense problems. I think that trying to hang an entire theology of a future only expression of these beasts based on this “evidence” is pretty weak.

      Second, even if the words were “shall arise” in 3 of the 4 instances that would still be true. Only one of the beasts had arisen at that point that the vision was given, so “shall arise” might still be appropriate. Again, deriving an entire theology of these beasts based on this one phrase is flimsy IMO. It disregards the beauty and perfect fulfillment of the Lion (the one beast that had arisen) in history.

    2. Phil, Now taking the opposite side (agreeing with you), in the Greek the word translated “arise” is ANISTEMI which can also mean “rise from the dead.” It is used in this sense in Mark 10:34; 12:23,25; Luke 9:19; Luke 11:32; 16:31; Luke 18:32; Luke 24:7,46; John 6:39-54; John 11:23-24; John 20:9 and these are only the uses found in the Gospels. So this word “might” support Mark Davidson’s view that Iraq, Iran, Turkey, etc. are resurrections of former empires.

      However, as I stated before, even if there is a future expression of these empires, it adds very little to Dan. 8 which is our primary text about the Sunni-Shia War that is coming.

  15. Is it not possible that Davidson is also correct that Daniel 7 is a near/far prophecy? The remainder of Daniel 7 does have a future aspect.. To me, it seems that once the lion has received a human heart (democracy?), it changes it modus operandi and no longer acts as a beast. This may be why it is not included in Daniel 8, which, as you say, is clearly future. Iran, Turkey and the little horn (the last three beasts of the original four) predominate – Iraq no longer figures on the world stage as a “beast”, unless, of course ISIS proves to be a reincarnation.

    1. Ben, thanks for your comment. Of course it’s possible Davidson is correct. I just pointed out in the article how Saddam’s Iraq and democracy doesn’t seem like a good fit for the Lion’s new human heart. It seems a stretch (a big stretch) to me.

      However, whether the first three beasts of Dan. 7 are to be considered future makes very little difference, so in many ways it is immaterial. Davidson’s theories about Dan. 8 are his great contribution thus far to prophecy theory and we all owe him a debt of thanks for that. Mark and I primarily disagree over the links between Rev. 6 and Dan. 8. That is not an immaterial discussion as it involves the timing and meaning of the seals and the Olivet Discourse. But that is another day’s discussion.

  16. Very nice summary on where the prophetic community stands in terms of the Daniel 7 vision. ISIS is very interesting. I would say they have to conquer Baghdad and South a bit in order to be fully considered for the Lion of Babylon. As it stands right now, they control Assyria which is one of the 7 heads of the Beast. ISIS turns all traces of past civilizations to dust ; ” Daesh” The Acronym to crush and trample underfoot is simply amazing and we know that describes the 4th Beast.

  17. I am not talking about ISIS exclusively, but your comment on their being given a ‘human heart’ got me thinking. Yes, it sounds highly unlikely to me. But, I thought i would be in pain forever. GOD healed me of that. My aunt had end stage cancer. GOD is healing her of that. I never thought a rich tycoon/Tv personality (I will not name, but fairly obvious) would be so close to being elected President. Life has taught me to no longer consider anything impossible. With GOD all things are possible. Today’s ‘it’s impossible’ is tomorrow’s ‘Wow, GOD, YOU amaze me every time!’ Though, it is definitely going take divine intervention to soften the hearts of those so evil. But, as I said, I am not talking only about ISIS.

  18. The only thing that keeps hanging me up about the Lion being Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon is that the Bear, Leopard and 10 horned beast seem to happen one right after the other boom boom boom. If Mark Davidson’s theory is correct you have the bear Iran Invading the middle east then very shortly after that you have the leopard a 4 nation Turkish led coalition retaliating and then within probably 6 years after that you have the 10 horned beast kingdom of the Antichrist. So like I said one right after another. But then the Lion is 2500 yrs ago it doesn’t seem to fit the pattern so to speak. ISIS could be it. Lets say the United States after the next President is elected or maybe even Russia destroys ISIS and reinstates democracy then shortly later Iran starts invading then you would have a fulfillment. But such a thing has yet to happen so we will have to wait and see.

    1. jlils, Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear enough in the article, sorry. I don’t think that the bear or leopard are modern manifestations either strictly because I don’t think the Lion is. If the Lion isn’t then the Bear isn’t, etc. Now in reality, it doesn’t really matter prophetically to any great extent. Dan. 8 tells us everything we need to know about future implications. And I believe Dan. 8 is future as does Davidson.

  19. How do you think Jesus’s words, “I go to prepare a place for you… I will come back and get you so that you may also be where I am…” fit in with the idea of the coming kingdom on earth? Also, Jesus said, “in my Father’s house there are many mansions…” Are these verses referring to things that will be part of the millennial kingdom?

    1. “My Father’s House” may refer to the coming temple (although the Greek is slightly different). “Mansions” is literally “apartments or rooms.” There were numerous small rooms attached to the ancient temple where priests resided. I think this is a picture of a communal living arrangement for the disciples (and maybe us) around where Jesus will be.

      The phrase “I go to prepare a place for you” refers to Jewish marriage rites I believe. A groom would first go and prepare the home for his bride and then return for her. I think Jesus is using this same type of language. Jesus first, of course, had to “prepare” for this marriage through his blood sacrifice and death. So this phrase has a double meaning that I think is quite elegant.

  20. My first problem is the assumption that Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are the same people groups. Daniel was given the interpretation from God for the Dan 2 vision. This being true why would he not know or recognize this same vision. Daniel 7:15-16 “I Daniel was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the vision of my head troubled me” … I asked him the truth of all this. The answer lies in vs 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and posses the kingdom for ever and ever. This did not happen and has not happened, but it will happen at the coming of Christ when he reigns for 1000 yrs. Therefore, I would conclude that King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream was about the same races of people but not the same period in history.

    1. Lois, thanks for the comment. First, let me answer about why Daniel was distressed. Notice he is distressed at the end of the vision (v.28) as well. Dan. 7 is a more robust vision that shows more detail of the coming future than Dan. 2. Dan. 7 includes a vision of the Antichrist and Dan. 2 does not. Daniel saw the Antichrist blaspheming God and spiritually overcoming his people for 3 1/2 years. This would distress anyone. Daniel’s vision in Dan. 8 made him sick as well.

      One of my primary means of Bible interpretation is letting “scripture interpret scripture” by means of “SENSE AND REFERENCE.” Sense is what the passage means literally and Reference is a direct quote, shared words or themes from another passage of scripture. This aspect of interpretation is very rarely used in the American Church (although it is ancient and was the Apostles primary method). In this case let’s use both to examine the similarities of Dan. 2 and 7. First let’s look at the references. If you examine the table in the beginning of the article you will see the column that shows many, many similarities between two visions. It is not logical that they are talking about different things, the odds of this being coincidence in a secular document is astronomical, the odds in an inspired God-breathed document is probably close to zero. I think your theory allows for this as well to some degree, but only to some degree. Remember Dan. 2 also includes the Antichrist Kingdom (10 toes) and it also includes Jesus’s Millennial Kingdom “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people” This language is very similar to Dan. 7:18, the ideas are the same. So the breath of the vision from Babylon (Dan. 2 tells us the head of gold is Babylon) across six kingdoms to the Millennial Kingdom is identical. I am hard pressed to believe there is anything in the vision that screams out it must be two distinct periods of time.

      Now can the Lion, Bear, and Leopard ALSO represent modern nations or kingdoms? Yes, but I don’t think the text allows us to say it only represents modern nations.

      1. Nelson re your Feb 6, 2:30pm “…In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people”

        Pleased to note this refc to Dan 2:44 as it’s too easily if not deliberately overlooked. It may explain why the early church viewed Rome as the 4th empire/beast – after all Jesus had come and His Kingdom set up and was spreading across the ancient world. Simple – period! But I have to conclude there’s much more to what’s written and prophesied.

  21. You said the Lion could be speaking of ISIS instead of Iraq. How do you see ISIS maybe fulfilling this prophecy? Do you believe the most likely correct interpretation of the passage about the lion being given a human heart is that Nebuchadnezzar repented and became a believer in God? You said that you see the time during the millennial kingdom as a “millennial long process which will be delegated to us.” What do you think will happen after the millennial kingdom? Will that kingdom last into eternity, and if so, why is it called a “millennial” kingdom? How do you think the millennial kingdom will be different from what people experience in Heaven today?

    1. I currently see the best interpretation of the Lion as Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar. It is a perfect fit. Could ISIS also fulfill it? Maybe. Who knows. After the millennium we enter the eternal state where God the Father and Jesus dwell with us. The Bible provides very little information on this. Perhaps we will learn more from Jesus Himself! Yes I think the Millennial Kingdom will be vastly different than what souls experience in heaven today. First we will be in resurrection bodies and we’ll live on the earth. Joel Richardson does a nice job on describing it in his book When A Jew Rules the World.

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