Thessalonians pictures the rapture. Matthew directly shows it occurring. A glaring problem for Bible Interpreters has been the lack of clarity of when the rapture occurs in the Book of Revelation. Can we know with certainty the timing of the rapture based on Revelation alone?

One of the hottest questions in the Church today is “will there be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?”  Does a rapture occur prior to the 70th Week of Daniel beginning?  There are debates and arguments about how to interpret the text of 1 Thessalonians and Matthew in determining the timing of the rapture.  It would be so convenient if Revelation clearly stated when the rapture occurs. There isn’t a clear picture of the rapture in that book, but it does show us when it doesn’t occur!  This is probably shocking to most readers.

In order to “see” clearly what is occurring in Revelation, we need to know how to interpret this book and the order of events.  Specifically for this study,  we need to know when the 70th Week of Daniel begins.  Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers call this 7 year time period “The Tribulation.”  If we know when this period begins, we can look for clues to see if the saints are raptured before or after this point.  If we find clues that the saints are not with Jesus after the beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel, then the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory is all but disproved.

How can I say this?  Let me explain. In 1 Thessalonians, Paul gives us the Bible’s clearest picture of the rapture.  Proponents of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture,  proponents of a Pre-Wrath Rapture (a rapture prior to God pouring out his wrath), and proponents of a Post-Tribulation Rapture (a rapture concurrent with the second coming of Jesus) all believe this passage is describing the rapture:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:15-17 NASB, emphasis mine)

Notice that after the rapture event, the saints will always be with the Lord.  This is the critical fact.  If we see a vision or picture of Jesus in the Book of Revelation that occurs after the 70th Week of Daniel has begun and the saints are not with him, the rapture could not have happened yet because the saints will always be with the Lord from that moment forward.

When Does the 70th Week of Daniel Begin?

Nearly all Bible scholars believe this period begins when the Lamb breaks the first seal on the 7 Sealed Scroll in Revelation 6:1, or slightly before this event.  Dr. Thomas Ice, who is a leading proponent of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory, states that the breaking of the first seal is the first event of what he calls the “Tribulation Period” pictured in Revelation.  Because those who believe in this theory consider the breaking of these seals to be the Wrath of God (it isn’t, but they consider it His Wrath), by definition, nearly all Pre-Trib. theory followers believe this event occurs at the beginning of this period or after the period has already begun. I am working on a second book which categorically proves that all of the seals are opened after the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, but because this is not contested by Pre-Trib. followers, there is no need to prove that here.

We have now established an event that is universally accepted by all believers in the Pre-Trib. position as occurring during the 70th Week of Daniel:  the opening of the first seal on the 7 Sealed Scroll.  If we are able to show that the saints of God are not with the Lamb when he breaks this seal, the rapture does not occur before what they call the “Tribulation Period” and the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is disproved.

John’s Vision of a Throne in Heaven

In Revelation 4, John is called up to heaven with these words, “Come up here.” The purpose of John’s call is to see a vision of the Lamb opening the 7 Sealed Scroll.  Pre-Trib. believers make the horrible assumption that this call to an individual, John, in first century Turkey to view a vision is somehow a “picture of the rapture of all believers that is about to occur twenty centuries or more later.  This is nonsense and no more factual than saying Jesus’s command to Peter to come to him on the water is a command for all of us to suddenly start walking on water ourselves.  But the Pre-Trib. believers are  on to something.  Deep in their subconscious, they realize that if the rapture does not occur here at this point in John’s narrative, their theory is wrong.

Let’s see why.  As John’s vision unfolds, we see God the Father sit upon his throne, Jesus (the Lamb) is found worthy to open it, the elders and living creatures sing a song of praise, a great multitude of angels praise the Lord, and Jesus opens the first seal.  I don’t want to copy that entire passage into this post so here is a link to Rev. 5:1-6:1.  Please give it a short read.

Now that you’re back, let’s “look” at the scene in heaven:

  • God the Father is present and seated on this throne in verse 1
  • A mighty angel is present and issues a challenge in verse 2
  • The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures are present in verse 6
  • The seven Spirits of God and the Lamb are present in verse 6
  • A great multitude of millions of angels are present in verse 11
  • Finally in Rev. 6:1, Jesus opens the first seal

Do you see who’s missing?  The saints!  They are to always be with the Lord after the rapture, yet they’re not there.  Can you imagine them not being present to praise Jesus for opening this scroll like the angels are?  No.  I can’t imagine it.  The reason is that they aren’t in heaven yet.  The rapture doesn’t occur before the Tribulation begins, it occurs in Revelation 7.  There we read:

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;  and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”  And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,  saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”  Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”  I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7: 9-14 NASB)

When the rapture does occur (after the Great Tribulation) John goes into great detail about the saints and their praise.  The very next verse tells us “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple.” (Rev. 7:15 NASB)  There it is: they are always with the Lord.

Could it be that back in Revelation 5, John simply overlooked this great multitude no one could count?  I don’t think so.  The only logical explanation is that the rapture doesn’t happen prior to the 70th Week of Daniel. Is there “wiggle” room for Pre-Tribbers? In Rev. 5:13 it says that all created things praised God.  Could this include the newly raptured saints?  Yes, it could, but it is highly illogical for John to go into such great detail about all the others present at the opening of the scroll and gloss over a multitude of tens of millions who had just been raptured and are getting their praise on like never in history.

In combination with our study on 2 Thess. 2 WILL THERE BE A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE, this study from Revelation supports the consistent testimony of scripture that there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture.  The rapture happens after the sixth seal is broken on the scroll Jesus is opening.

The Debate

In September, Alan Kurschner is going to debate Dr. Thomas Ice on whether the Church will face the Antichrist.  Let us all join in prayer that the truth of God’s Word rings out across the world and the deception of the Church that is currently ongoing ends.



    1. rb, thanks for reading and your comment. The timeline for the seals IS given, however, as with most things eschatological, it is not well understood. I realize from your comment you have not read “Revelation Deciphered” that does a complete job of explaining this in Chapter Five. I highly recommend you read it if you want the whole picture.

      However, the short version is that the vision in Dan. 7:9-10 is the identical vision in Rev. 4-8. There are six exact similarities between the passages. From this we know that the Antichrist is active and has plucked out 3 horns prior to the opening of a single seal. This narrows it down a great deal. Second from the wording of the first seal we know the Antichrist is carrying a bow without arrows. (SEE article WHO RIDES THE WHITE HORSE). This is symbolic of the Covenant with the Many.

      So biblically, it is very hard to justify any sort of pre-70th Week opening of seals, and this is what is universally accepted by Christian teachers, although I think both proof texts above are unique to this ministry.

  1. Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

    When is the First Resurrection? At Christ return!!! The Second Resurrection doesn’t happen until AFTER the 1,000 years.

    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

  2. First century Christians didn’t teach the Rapture, actually it was never taught until the 1900’s. The Church has reached out to pagans in the past and the only way they could get them to come is if the pagans could keep their traditions. I’ve seen a lot of teachers say the two witnesses/olive trees/two candlesticks are two Prophets that have never died in the Old Testament time but will come back to be killed while the Church is being Rapture. I don’t think I will understand why the two witnesses didn’t become a part of the Church and get Rapture out too.

    John 16:33 – Jesus Christ said to His followers, “In the world YOU shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

    Acts 14:22 – Paul told Christians, “WE through much tribulation must enter the kingdom of God.”

    Matthew 24:21,22 – Jesus said there would be “great tribulation” which His followers (the “elect”) must endure. Yet for “the elects sake, those days shall be shortened.”

    Romans 5:3 – True Christians are to “glory in tribulations” because “tribulation works patience” and develops Christian character.

    Revelation 1:9 – John was our “companion in tribulation.”

    Revelation 2:9 – To His church, Jesus said, “I know your works and tribulation…”

    Revelation 2:10 – Again to His church, Jesus said, “YOU shall have tribulation…”

    Revelation 7:14 – God’s final people “came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” They did not escape it, but endured through it, being purified.

    1. First Randy, you completely misunderstand my position on the Rapture, I am Pre-Wrath. In the next year there will be an awesome project on this topic available which will show why there is no Pre-Trib Rapture and no Post-Trib Rapture but rather a Pre-Wrath Rapture after the Sixth Seal of Revelation. This comparative work will answer all your questions. In the mean time, pick up Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal.

      If you don’t believe in a Rapture after the Sixth Seal (sun and moon darkening, star falling event), then answer this question for yourself. Why did Jesus not give any of the Trumpet or Bowl Judgments as signs of his coming in Matt. 24? These are earth shaking events. Either Jesus comes before the Trumpets and the Bowls or he misled the Church by giving an incomplete list of signs in Matt. 24.

  3. Nelson, you said :

    “God permits this, doesn’t cause it. The first six years are not Wrath”

    When you have studied those scriptures I gave you, that show Daniel’s entire 70 week prophecy is caused by God, and is his judgement against Israel, you will see things in a different light. That is, if we aren’t raptured in the meantime. In which case I will explain it to you on the way up…

    1. Phil, IMO, wrath (God’s anger) takes two forms 1.) the anger of God that occurs in relation to our current sin. Much like an earthly parent, our heavenly Father allows punishment into our lives to correct our course. (I am shocked you deny this.) and 2.) the Judgment of God that will be poured out on the Day of the Lord.

      Romans 1 and 2 picture both. Type 1: “. . .receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.” (Rom. 1:27)

      “But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” (Rom. 2:5)

      So the question arises when is the Day of the Lord. If you say it is the entire 70th Week please prove it with a scripture that clearly says that. I know you will not be able to find one. That is because scripture tells us that the Wrath of God happens AFTER the sixth seal of Revelation. Scripture can’t contradict itself.

      Joel 2:30-31 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness
      And the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.”

      Rev. 6: 12-17 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for THE GREAT DAY OF THEIR WRATH HAS COME, and who is able to stand?”

      The timing of the day of wrath, the day of the Lord is obvious and plain. I looked at all the verses you gave me and no mention like this is found. And you won’t find anything to contradict this clear statement of timing.

      Of course, then Matthew gives you the Rapture timing in regard to this event as well:

      (Matt. 24:29-31) But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

      We see the same sun darkening/moon blood/heaven shaking event and the same fear and mourning of the unrighteous. All three are obviously the same event. Please don’t let your heart be hardened as to what the Lord is saying in these passages.

      1. Nelson, you said: “So the question arises when is the Day of the Lord. If you say it is the entire 70th Week please prove it with a scripture that clearly says that. I know you will not be able to find one. That is because scripture tells us that the Wrath of God happens AFTER the sixth seal of Revelation. Scripture can’t contradict itself.”

        Neither can you prove with a scripture, that the day of the Lord is the seventh year. Rev 6:12-17 contradicts your ideas. That is, unless you are claiming “the presence of Him who sits on the throne”, is an invisible presence. Otherwise you’re claiming God is physically present and visible for that year.

        There are benchmark scriptures, by which we must interpret all others. The many that tell us our sins are forgiven and we are made righteous in Christ, are those by which we must interpret all scripture that speaks of God’s judgement. (I am not speaking of His correction of His children)

        The scriptures I presented to you when you challenged me to prove the 70 week prophecy is God’s judgement, does just that!
        They are His judgement against Israel, and the Church has no part of it. If you don’t agree, make your rebuttal, and stop trying to score points!

        1. I believe the Parousia begins with the Rapture at the end of the sixth year. Christ’s Shekinah glory is visible to all as he is coming on the clouds at that time. That is what the scriptures teach. Isa 40: 5 “The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, And all flesh shall see it together” Not see him yet, but see his brilliant Shekinah glory. Carefully look at what Rev. 6 says:

          And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come (Look at this, another “Time Stamp” for the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord, it comes AFTER the Celestial Earthly Disturbance), and who is able to stand?”

          It does not say they see Jesus yet, they are trying to hide so they don’t look upon him. But they absolutely know he is there. All flesh shall see his glory. Jesus told us this is THE sign of his coming. This is how we are not deceived by false messiahs, his Shekinah glory. “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west (his Shekinah glory), so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.” (Matt. 24: 27-28)

          Look at the end of that verse in Matthew. The eagles (angels) gather together the dead body and the live body (Luke and Matthew’s versions use different words PTOMA and SOMA so we get the full picture of the Rapture). Full explanation of this odd illustration is found here on this site.

          Everything fits together in beautiful consistency. You still did not provide the scripture that shows the Day of the Lord is the entire 70th Week. I provided yet another one in this comment. Do not harden your heart to what these scriptures are saying, Phil.

    2. I find it humorous that you guys ignore the 20 other places about the day of the Lord to make your point that its the end only.

      Paul: the day of the Lord is a destruction when people say peace The only possible time for that peace to take place is at the middle of the tribulation, when Jesus says FLEE ISRAEL from that destruction!

      Luke 21 now makes complete sense:
      20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, ….There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (NIV)

      EZEKIEL 7-11

      On THE DAY: PEACE is sought, but not found.
      (Paul: the day happens when people say peace)

      ZECHARIAH 14

      On THE DAY, Jerusalem’s goods will be plundered. The city will be ransacked, the houses looted, and the women raped. (Jesus also warned Judea to FLEE. Even pregnant women should worry, he said.)

      so my discovery for which you guys will ignore it, is that the day happens when people say PEACE at the middle of tribulation, hence the key words : flee, peace

      and then after the antichrist rules for 42 months, then JESUS COMES back!

      So here are three places where the day happens during peace…
      and there aint no peace at the end–

      but Im sure you will ignore this……..

      Joel 2:31 before can mean in the sight of

      1. Let’s start with the word in Joel 2:31 translated “before.” In Greek this is PRIN which always means before. The Hebrew is LIPNE which occurs over 2000 times in the OT. It can mean “before” or “before the face of.” One can easily see how one can present before the face of a king for instance. How does one present before the face or surface of the Day of the Lord? It isn’t during the DOL, that is in the middle of it. It is before it begins. There is zero wiggle room to say Joel 2:31 says anything except the Celestial Earthly Disturbance happens PRIOR to the Day of the Lord. And from Revelation we know that the CEDE happens at the sixth seal, long after Jerusalem is conquered. We know from Matthew 29 that this happens after the Great Tribulation. Again, all is consistent.

        Now let’s look at 1 Thess. 5:2-3 which is the only one of your passages that uses the exact term “Day of the Lord.” What does Paul say:

        For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

        No where does Paul say “Jews” or “Jerusalem.” He says “they.” Who are “they?” Since you know Ezekiel, Alan, I’m sure you’re aware that Jerusalem undergoes a seige prior to its conquering at the midpoint of the 70th Week. In Ezekiel 4 the length of the seige is given as 430 days. Certainly Jerusalem isn’t saying “Peace” for a year and a quarter prior to their conquering. So who is the “they” in 1 Thess. 5: 2-3. I believe it is the unrighteous world-wide. Let’s look at why I think this is the people of the Empire of the Beast saying this:

        * Christ returns to the earth when the power of the Holy people is broken (Dan. 12:7). Earlier, at this point (end of year six), that is almost done. The Jews and Christians are no longer a problem for the people.
        * The two witnesses have plauged the Beast Empire for 3 years. They start the drought in year 3, minister for 1260 days and die 3 1/2 days prior to the resurrection at the end of year six. At this point the Beast Empire throws a party and exchanges gifts. This death of the witnesses is the main reason I think they are saying “peace and safety.” “And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.” Rev. 11:10.

        BTW we know the witnesses do not die at the end of the 3 1/2 because the Bowls are happening then. No one could say peace and safety when the bowls are occurring. You admit this yourself in your comments, “there ain’t no peace at the end.”


          ZECH 14:
          On THE DAY, Jerusalem’s goods will be plundered. The city will be ransacked, the houses looted, and the women raped.

          (Jesus also warned Judea to FLEE. Even pregnant women should worry, he said.)

          Half the city will FLEE!


          1. I only have time to analyze one for you Alan.

            Zech. 14: 1-7 “Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

            Okay look at verse one. Look carefully. “Behold, a day is coming (future tense) for the Lord when the spoil taken from you (past tense) will be divided (future tense) among you.” When was the spoil taken? The spoil was taken from Jerusalem in the invasion that happened at the Midpoint of the 70th week (past tense) and will be returned to them at the end of the Day of the Lord. The years that the locusts ate will be returned. This shows that the gathering of the nations, the spoil, the killing will have already happened when the Day comes. This The invasion and THE DAY are separated in time. The invasion comes first THEN the Lord will return and fight. Then the sun will be darkened, etc.

            Just as I have shown in previous comments, the Day of the Lord is after the Celestial Earthly Disturbance Event at the end of the sixth year. God’s Word is completely consistent, we just have to carefully look at what is being said.

          2. Yeah…… nice try, so what you are saying is actually making my point, which is the day is an invasion at the mid point, and thats when the spoil is taken.

            ALAN BROOKS SCORES! . . .


            PS did you have to search a long time to find some weird translation to make your idea work, or is that one you always use? Because the NKJV matches my ideas.

          3. I did not do a Greek/Hebrew study of this verse. My trusted NASB that I always use let me down. Of course the NKJV/KJV is wrong about Zech 14:1 as well. The reason is the phrase translated “Day of the Lord” in the KJV is very strange. It is not “Day of the Lord,” but something similar and it confuses translators. In the Greek Septuagint “day” is actually plural and best translated “days for the Lord are coming.” I trust the Greek texts more than the Hebrew and I think this is the best guess as to what Zech 14 is getting at. Days of judgment are coming on the Jews. It is not the specific GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD. Rather God has appointed several days (possibly the days of Daniel and days of Noah?) yet to come.

            In the Hebrew the word “DAY” is singular but there is no definitive article “the” and it’s “for the Lord” not “of the Lord.” The majority of English translations give “a day is coming for the Lord.” Again this isn’t the GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD, the Day of Wrath. I can see why the KJV gets it wrong, the phrase is similar to DAY OF THE LORD but not exact.

            Of course, the reason it isn’t exact is God gives us specific time markers in Joel 2:30-31 and Rev. 6:12-17 that show the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord happens after the Celestial Earthly Disturbance Event. When we have such clear and direct statements we need to trust them.

          4. Ok so the NKJV is wrong on Zechariah 14 why is it wrong? (“just because”)
            what about Zephaniah?

            ZEPHANIAH 1

            The day of the Lord is at hand. The Lord has prepared a
            sacrifice; Jerusalem will have their goods become booty and their house a desolation.
            The great day of the Lord is near. It’s a day of wrath, trouble
            Distress and desolation! Desolation and darkness!
            The whole land shall be devoured!
            Note: Jerusalem will have their good become booty. On the day.
            their whole land will be devoured.. (but alan thats only at the end–why? because I say so!) hey sure parse it out

            isnt it funny how you are so wedded to you idea that when I say there are 15 other places that say the day of the Lord is an invasion of a peaceful Israel, as Paul said too,

            you re just not-interested in even knowing about them!

            and now you are trying to differentiate between the great and terrible day and the day of the Lord


            Thats what people do I suppose, look at a specific word to try and change the overall meaning of a text if it does not agree with their take….


          5. Here is a quote from Zeph 1:18:

            On the day of the Lord’s wrath;And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy,For He will make a complete end,
            Indeed a terrifying one,Of all the inhabitants of the earth

            Please note it is the Lord doing this, not an invading army. Notice fire is involved, notice it involves all the earth not just Jerusalem. Will Jerusalem be invaded at the midpoint as you say? Yes. Do all the scriptures you mention picture this? Yes. Is this the Day of the Lord/the Day of the Lord’s Wrath? No. That happens in the final year and it begins with fire and brimstone raining down on the earth like the flood waters of Noah’s day. That is what the Day of the Lord looks like in my opinion. And it is supported by the scriptures, just like this one.

          6. HOSEA 13

            7 Israel will be devoured like
            8 lion, a leopard, and a bear.

            9 O Israel, you are

            13 Labor pains.

            16 because of rebellion,
            they shall fall by the
            Their infants shall be
            dashed in pieces,
            and their women with
            child shall be ripped

            not the comparison with other chapters on the day of the Lord: ISREEL WILL BE invaded !

            Hosea 13 has remarkable
            parallels found in other end-time
            chapters which also have
            the number 13 in them:

            Rev 13: the antichrist’s kingdom will
            look like a lion, a leopard & a bear!

            Isaiah 13: the day of the Lord will
            come like labor pains! Children will
            be dashed to pieces, wives ravished.

            Mark 13: the antichrist invades
            Jerusalem. Flee!
            Woe to those who are pregnant!

            Hosea 13:16 warns as to why
            women who are pregnant should
            be afraid of the antichrist invasion!

            Luke 13: Jerusalem-your house is
            left unto you desolate!

            Jeremiah 13: invasion from the
            north causes labor pains. Can
            a leopard change it’s spots?

            Hosea 13 perhaps illustrates why
            the number 13 is unlucky!

          7. Very interesting. Of course the Bible had no chapter/verse divisions in those days. Sept 13 is Friday the 13th and 29th of Elul this year. Interesting combination as well.

          1. Yes, I believe it “probably” will be 3 1/2 literal days. If it was 3 1/2 years this would mean a ministry during the first half of Daniel’s 70th Week. I used to believe that but now I think differently. The timing of the witnesses is something I’m not completely sure of. I am still seeking truth on that one.

  4. Nelson,

    You said: “Taking the Mark of the Beast isn’t a “work,” it is a sign that the individual never had saving faith.”

    No, it’s a sign of commitment to the one they have chosen to believe. The Antichrist.

    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

    We aren’t required to have any mark. Only to believe. Taking a mark is a physical work.

    I Cor 6:11 “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

    You see, nowhere in that passage above, any indication of us working for our salvation, or sanctification. And please note: “we were washed”!

    Rev 2:8-10 ““To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

    These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

    That was persecution, which the Church always will suffer whilst on Earth. It is the works of Satan, not the judgement of God.

    Rev 3:10 “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.”

    That speaks of the Tribulation. It is the judgement of God, which involves his wrath. You try to make a distinction between the two, but they arew part and parcel of the same. That judgement is against Israel (proven by the scriptures I quoted two posts back.

    1. Phil, Jesus came to save us “from our sins.” Works and faith are related:

      “If someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.” (Jam. 2: 14-17)

      Works that we perform are expressions of our faith. Refusing to take the Mark of the Beast (which will lead to certain physical death) is an expression of faith; and faith comes through the Grace of God. Refusing the Mark doesn’t save, someone could refuse it in the name of Buddah, and I assume some will refuse it for that reason. It is the faith in Jesus behind the refussal that saves. Hopefully you see the difference.

      It is interesting that you think The Letter to Philadelphia is prophetic (it includes Rev. 3:10), but not the Letter to Smyrna. I am working on a new book. In that book (now 400 pages), among other things, I show that contrary to the majority of Church opinion, all 7 letters are prophetic. This will come out next summer or fall. However, in the mean time let us look at Rev. 3:10. Once you understand the purpose of the 7 Letters and the placement of the Philadelphia letter in the series, you will realize that Rev. 3:10 is a picture of the Rapture. It is a picture but just one that happens at the end of sixth year of the 70th Week not at the beginning. The “trial” coming upon the world is the Wrath of God which happens in the 7th Year not the full 70th Week. The Letter to Smyrna happens much ealier in the 70th Week and as you rightly point out, the first six years are the doing of Satan not God. (God permits this, doesn’t cause it. The first six years are not Wrath)

      I realize this rings hollow without the 400 pages of back up this future book provides, however, one thing you can know now is the Wrath occurs after the Great Triublation. Three separate views of the Celestial Earthly Disturbance “time stamp” this event: Joel 2:30-31, Matt. 24:29-31, Rev. 6: 12-17. Joel shows us the Day of the Lord happens after this event, Revelation shows this happens at the sixth seal and that the Wrath starts after this, and Matthew shows the Rapture happens after this event as well. The Celestial Earthly Disturbance Event is a key event in the end times, that is why scripture provides 5 views of it and so much information about it. Do not harden your heart toward what these scriptures are showing you about Rapture timing. Once you see the proper Rapture timing, the rest of the end times fall into place.

  5. Nelson, whether you post this or not, is of course up to you. But I will say it anyway, because it should be said.

    You said:
    “There are only 2 resurrections. One at the rapture and one after the 1000 years are complete, which one is this? It has to be the one at the rapture so the rapture and resurrection will include those who did not take the Mark.”

    Wrong! There was a resurrection at Christ’s crucifixion. But we aren’t talking about resurrection. We are talking about Rapture. Different thing altogether!

    You said: “To say God does away with Grace is a dangerous statement. God saves through grace”.

    I Never said He does away with grace. I was talking about salvation by ‘grace alone’ as being unique to the Church age. You agree not taking the mark is a requirement of salvation during the Tribulation. Therefore you agree that salvation isn’t by grace alone during that period. You can’t have it both ways!

    1. Phil, 1 Thess. 4 shows that the resurrection happens first then the resurrected saints and those who survive the Tribulation are Raptured together, so no, the two events occur in rapid succession and are directly linked. Almost every Pre-Tribber believes the passage in 1 Thess. 4:16-17 represents their “secret rapture.” So the verse in Revelation shows this Resurrection includes those beheaded and those that did not take the Mark of the Beast. It is yet another direct proof that there is no Pre-Trib Rapture.

      Salvation is always by “grace alone” so that no man may boast. This grace is through faith. Taking the Mark of the Beast isn’t a saving “work,” it is a sign that the individual never had saving faith. “Once saved, always saved”; but who are the saved? Read the Epistle of 1 John.

  6. Nelson, you said: “We don’t wash our robes in the blood of the lamb? 1 John 1:7 “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.” This is definitely for the Church. Rev. 7:14 is also about salvation by grace, no one comes to the Father except by Grace. They same is true for the Jews.”

    No! That is a misinterpretation fuelled by your unscriptural belief that we are active participants in our salvation through works as well as grace.
    “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

    Rev 7:14 clearly shows the Tribulation saints working for their salvation. Their refusal to accept the mark of the beast (a requirement for salvation during the Tribulation) proves the age of salvation through grace alone is over.

    Daniel 9:24

    Jeremiah 25:1-11

    I quote below from someone else’s work which provides the scripture that also proves my case…

    “We also know that during the time of Jeremiah who God was speaking to in Jerusalem, God was also speaking to Ezekiel who was a captive Jew in Babylon.
    While the country of Israel lost their Independence in 606 BC they were allowed to rule the city Jerusalem for the next 19 years until in 587 BC they rebelled and the King of Babylon ordered both the city walls and the temple in Jerusalem destroyed, only a small fraction of the population were spared death or captivity in Babylon (Jeremiah was one of the few).
    Ezekiel, a prophet, who was a Jewish captive in Babylon at the same time Jeremiah was prophesying to those in Jerusalem. God told Ezekiel that Israel and Judah had done so much wrong that the following punishment was necessary:
    Ezekiel 4:1-7

    It is also to be noted that in the book of Leviticus, if the people did not do what God required during the punishment he would multiply the punishment by seven times over, and if they still did not repent he would punish them seven times more.

    Leviticus 26:14-35
    “`But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, then I will do this to you: … “`If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. …”`If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve…”`If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over… “`If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. …Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.”

    I haven’t fully investigated these prophecies, but they clearly take us right through the time span of that given in Daniel 9:24. Including the final seven years. They are all against Israel. And they are all God’s judgement/punishment.

    1. Thanks for the reply. This is the last of these “philosphical” posts we will have on Rapture timing. The reason is that God’s Word clearly and distinctly gives us “hard evidence” for rapture timing.

      Matt. 24:29: AFTER the tribulation of those days
      2 Thess. 2: It will not come UNLESS the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed
      Joel 2: 31 : The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

      Add to that semi-hard evidence such as:

      Church not visible in heaven during the opening of the seals
      Jesus did not show “silent rapture” before Trib as a sign in Olivet Discourse
      Rev. 20:4 where those who did not take the mark of the Beast came to life and reign in the Millenium. There are only 2 resurrections. One at the rapture and one after the 1000 years are complete, which one is this? It has to be the one at the rapture so the rapture and resurrection will include those who did not take the Mark.

      All of this is overwhelming evidence against a Pre-Trib rapture.

      Now answering your statement that there is no grace during the 70th Week, look at the verse I quoted in Zech. 12:10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him.” There it is: Grace. To say God does away with Grace is a dangerous statement. God saves through grace.

      Now in regard to the 70th Week being punishment on the Jews. Certainly the Jews will be present during the Wrath of God which is poured out after the Church is raptured at the end of the sixth year. This is absolutely punishment. In Isaiah 28:15-16, we have God’s repsonse to the Covenant with Sheol (the Covenant with the Many Dan. 9:27) ” Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we have made a pact. The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by,For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception.” Therefore thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.”

      I think it can be argued that for those who have not accepted the cornerstone by faith, there is punishment. Those who have will not be disturbed. Not that they will be taken out of the way, they will not be disturbed within the flood.

      Also in Lev. 26 there are four (4) seperate 70 x 7 perscriptions of judgment, not just one. This has a different meaning. Is this Israel’s total judgment from 70AD on until the return of Messiah? I’m not ready to say that, but there is more going on there than reference to Daniel’s 70th Week.

  7. Come on Nelson, I don’t believe you don’t see the significance of Rev 7:14. There is a statement that if it clearly didn’t apply to the Church, would turn the doctrine of salvation by grace alone on it’s head. They washed there robes, we didn’t. We were washed, and robed in his righteousness.

    And when the fullness of us Gentiles have come in, what happens?

    “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,

    With who? The Jews of course!

    You know something? I like your reasoning regarding that final year. But I think it is more likely to have to do with all Israel being saved. Otherwise the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Then what?… Then simply more gentiles come in. It doesn’t make sense!

    But the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and up we go. Now that makes sense!

    If you don’t believe the 70 weeks are a judgement/punishment against Israel, and can’t be likened to the persecutions suffered by the Church, you really should read my book.

    1. We don’t wash our robes in the blood of the lamb? 1 John 1:7 “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.” This is definately for the Church. Rev. 7:14 is also about salvation by grace, no one comes to the Father except by Grace. They same is true for the Jews.

      Let’s look at Roman 11:25 that you quote. When does the fullness of the Gentiles happen? Right before Israel repents. When does Israel repent? Right before the Second Coming when Jesus sets foot on the earth. We know from Zech. 12:10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.” So the Jews have to see Jesus before they repent and receive grace. This happens at the very end, and yes, more gentiles are saved during the final year. This makes perfect sense. But at the very end, the fullness of the gentiles is reached, Jesus returns and the Jews are saved in one day.

      Phil, you can’t simply say the 70 weeks are judgment, please provide verses. I have an open mind, but i need scripture.

    2. Phil,

      They washed their robes is, yes. a statement of wrks, and yet so is what jesus also said in end time context:

      Jesus said if you endure to the end you will be saved.

      REVELATION: Do not take the mark.

      MAtt 2446 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’[g] 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

      “Washing your robes” is a metaphor for keeping your self ready and clean, for if you are not ready, Jesus said you will be sent to hell.

      Finally Jesus gave the same warning in Rev 16:15, at armageddon, for some reason a text you ignore.

      There are always conditions for grace–its not blanket you know.

      if you grieve the Holy Spirit, do not take the mark, do not endure toi the end——ALL imply loss of salvation

  8. Nelson,

    I didn’t say there would only be Jews going through, or coming out of the Tribulation. Obviously there will be Gentiles who accept Christ during that time as well as Jews. What I say is that the Bride of Christ won’t go through it because it is saved by grace alone. The Bride is unique, and not to be counted among those saved through the Tribulation, who are not saved by grace alone.

    The fact that the Bride of Christ suffers persecution during this dispensation of grace doesn’t mean it will go through the Tribulation when this dispensation of grace ends. As I already said: The Tribulation is God’s judgement against Daniel’s people (Jews).

    It is illogical to claim that Jesus forgives us all our sins, then punishes us with the same seventieth week of judgement pronounced on the Jews for their sins. There is no other way of looking at it. If I whack the good guy with the same stick I whacked the bad guy. I am punishing both the same. Or in your preferred words – refining both.

    Your considerations of this subject are influenced by a misunderstanding of the completeness of what Christ did for us on that Cross, and the difference between the Bride of Christ and all others.

    Rev 7:14
    “And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

    Do you see the difference? They wash THEIR robes. We wear HIS robe.

    1. The problem I have with this logic is your claim that the 70th Week of Daniel is “punishment” for those going through it and that the period of grace ends at the beginning of the Week. The essential difference is what constitues “tribulation” and what constitutes “wrath.”

      Let’s start with grace ending. Grace doesn’t end, God extends his grace to the Jews at the end of the Week and as we learn in Romans, all of Israel is saved! As far as punishment goes, it is a mistaken view of tribulation. I have already shown you Phil. 1:27-30, Jesus himself said, “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 5:11). Jesus said we are blessed if we are persecuted. The Holy Spirit thru Paul says it is a priveldge. When we look at the 70th week or what Iraqi Christians are undergoing right now (which is what the Great Tribulation will look like on a smaller scale) with fleshy eyes, it looks like punishment. It is not. That is our flesh talking. Are the Iraqi’s being punished by God? Are they not the Bride of Christ? God has permitted the persecution and martyrdom of his saints throughout the ages. Were Peter, Stephen, Timothy, Polycarp, etc. not all the Bride of Christ? Yet they all were martyred. This is what the first six years of the 70th Week will be: Great “Tribulation” (notice Jesus does not call it wrath.)

      What Jesus did for us on the cross guarantees eternal life. It doesn’t save us from persecution which is what we will face. In fact Jesus guarantees persecution in John 16:33.

      The true punishment comes with the Wrath of God on the Day of the Lord. God has given us a “time stamp” for this event. Joel 2:30-31 tells us the Wrath is poured out AFTER the cosmic wonders that occur at the sixth seal of Revelation at the end of the sixth year. Jesus shows us this wrath is poured out after the Rapture “as in the Days of Lot.” He also says these cosmic signs happen “after the tribulation of those days” in Matt. 24:29. The Bible is incredibly consistent. All verses point to a rapture and the Wrath of God after the Great Tribulation.

      As far as the robes of the martyr saints, we see them receiving them at the fifth seal. Rev. 6:11. Where does the Bible show two classes of saints, one wearing Christ’s robe and one wearing something else?

  9. Alan, you say: “the key word saints…. as in Christians”.

    Only in your interpretation. But what would you call a person who receives Christ after the Rapture?

    Daniel 9:24
    “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy”.

    That passage is precise and impossible to expand to include the Gentile Church, that didn’t exist at the time of the prophecy. Neither is the Gentile Church; Daniel’s people. Nor did it have a holy city.

    Eschatology is a maze. Only one path leads to the centre. All others are dead ends. To find that one path. You have to understand the sign that says: ‘You are saved by faith alone. That faith is a gift. Sanctification is something you receive when Christ robes you in his righteousness. You aren’t sanctified through you own efforts or endurance. That would be your own righteousness which is filthy rags. The work of God is faith in Christ.

    If a Christian isn’t made ready for Heaven the moment they receive Christ, they certainly won’t be made ready by tribulation. If you believe otherwise, you believe in another gospel, not the gospel of Jesus Christ. And all the wrong paths will appear to be right!

    The fact that all non-pre tribulationists I debate with ever truly accept salvation by grace alone is proof to me of the real problem. You might say you do. But then you slide in that tribulation refining process, and nullify grace.

    1. Phil,

      you are confusing salvation with refining. What Iraqi/Syrian Christians are enduring right now is the equivalent of “great tribulation,” simply on a regional scale. Why would a world wide version of this great tribulation not be allowed by our King? He not only will permit it, he prophesied it. “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.” (Matt. 24:9), “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake.” (Luke 21: 12) And what is the purpose of this tribulation? Jesus told us that as well in the next verse: “It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony.” (Luke 21: 13) Without the tribulation, there isn’t the opportunity. Do you see it? This isn’t a matter of salvation, the saints are already saved. It is walking in the “good works” that God has prepared ahead of time for us to do (Eph. 2:10). Let’s look at that verse together:

      For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph. 2:8-10)

      God saves us by grace that no man may boast. God prepares the good works in advance, but we have to walk in them, brother. He doesn’t walk in them for us. Tribulation as Jesus explained above, gives us the opportunity. Do you see it?

      Now as for the saints only being Jews, look at this verse: “Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him” (Dan. 7:27). Do you actually believe that the saints are only Jews and only they will possess the Kingdom of Christ which is clearly defined here as all the kingdoms under heaven? If you agree that the saints are Christians as well then the verses preceding it that mention saints apply to Christians: “I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.” (Dan. 7:21-22)

      The Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory causes all kinds of unnatural reading of scripture just to force that theory into hundreds of passages, just as I mentioned in the article. Saying that saints aren’t Christians is an example. Daniel was written nearly 600 years before there was a single Christian on the planet, so obviously it doesn’t mention Christians by name. Jesus’s quoting of the book numerous times (“Therefore when YOU (Christians) see the Abomination of Desolation…” Matt. 24:15) shows it is applicable to us.

      I realize it is hard to give up something you have built your entire end time views around. But consider these things.

  10. You should take another look at how the Temple and the various things used in service were sanctified. It was a shadow of our sanctification by Christ.

    You should also take another look at Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy, and in particular, why that sentence was passed. It’s a punishment from start to finish.

    If you believe the Church is going to share in that punishment. That belief can only be because you don’t accept that Christ has paid the price of your sins in full.

    1. The church is not being punished. The church are witnesses of Jesus’s love during the 70th Week. “And they overcame him (Satan) because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.” (rev. 12:11)

      1. So the Jews are there as a result of God’s judgment against them for not doing his will. But the Church is there because it is doing His will ???

        And if the Church is there to witness, what’s the job of the two witnesses?

        1. As with many aspects of God’s plan of redemption, Phil there are multiple purposes for the 70th Week: refinement of both the Jewish remnant and the Church, testing (Rev. 3:10), and as a witness in regards to the Church. Notice in Rev. 12: 11, the Church is also engages in Spiritual warfare, and their testimony and faith unto death is part of what helps Michael cast Satan out of heaven. The aspect of punishment is only for the wicked upon the pouring out of God’s Wrath. Did you know it is privilege to suffer for Christ (Phil. 1:27-30)? God’s Holy purposes for his Church in the last days are frequently misunderstood.

          The 7 Sealed Scroll needs to be understood. It is a key to the 70th Week. If we view the scroll in its full meaning of “man’s inheritance” (reward for the righteous, punishment for the wicked, and return of dominion of the earth to the rightful owners), then the 70th Week comes into focus and the timing of events as well. That is why once the scroll is opened and the names of the righteous are revealed (Dan. 12:1-4 shows the sealing of the names), the Rapture occurs at the 7th Seal. When the Trumpets which are the plagues written into the scroll are completed, then the dominion is returned at the 7th Trumpet.

          As far as the 2 Witnesses go, will God only have 2 witnesses on the earth? Really? The witnesses (martyrs) prophesy 1260 days. So part of their mission is revelation as well. They are Jerusalem (ground zero for the end times) based, still there long after the AC invades and carries the Jews into captivity. They are the primary witnesses there, but as Joel 2 and Acts 2 says God will pour out his spirit in those days before the coming of the Great and Terrible day of the Lord (7th year of the 70th Week) and many will prophesy. Hopefully that will include many of our readers, you and I.

          1. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

            the key word saints…. as in christians

  11. I wanted to answer your point regarding sanctification.

    You are misunderstanding it’s meaning. Sanctification is what the blood of Christ does for us. We are not sanctified by tribulation. That produces the fruit you described. But sanctification is an unearned gift.

    1. Santification is a mutual God/person thing. Here are comments on it from “My Utmost For His Highest” The Holy Spirit is involved, of course. Man can’t sanctify himself. We gain the Holy Spirit by Jesus’s blood, so in that aspect you are partly correct. I am not fully sanctified, yet. I am fully saved. Jesus’s blood alone isn’t the full answer for sanctification. Sanctification is a process and yes, the refining process does frequently involve tribulation as the Romans verse explains. It involves dying to “self.”

  12. Hi Nelson,

    the argument made in the post you linked to is based on a false premise. You say “But the idea that we will be abandoned by the Holy Spirit at the time of our greatest need is a false doctrine”.

    That isn’t the ‘idea’ at all. It’s an assumption you make based on your belief that the body of Christ is going to be “refined through the Tribulation”, rather than being already robed in righteousness solely by the grace of God.

    The true idea is the body of Christ began it’s earthly existence before the Holy Spirit came. And that same body of Christ will be taken in the Rapture. Thus removing the Holy Spirit/Restrainer.

    1. I believe the rapture occurs at the 7th seal of revelation at the last moment of the 6th year of the Tribulation. At that point, the Holy Spirit in believers leaves but he will still be present. Read the article again, my co-writer makes excellent points on why it can’t be the Holy Spirit.

      If you are Pre-Trib, please read Alan Kurschner’s Antichrist before the Day of the Lord. It will answer your questions.

    2. Phil, as I have tried to convey, the book of revelation is a series of pictures about one time frame-the last 3 1/2 years. It has the same story presented perhaps 6 times. the rapture takes place at the end of the last 3 1/2 years avery time. . .
      Alan Brooks

        1. Daniel’s 70th week is the fulfilment of a prophecy that concerns ‘his people, and his holy city’. The Jews and Jerusalem. Absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Church of Jesus Christ.

          If you believe Jesus is going to allow his bride, who is robed in his righteousness, and made spotless by his blood, to go through the refining process that is the Tribulation in order to be worthy. You are rejecting all the Bible says about salvation through grace alone.

          1. Phil, The Church in multiple areas of the world are undergoing Tribulation right now, just as they have for the entire Church age.

            Read Phillipians 1:28-30. Sufferring is a priviledge. God will not allow his Church to undergo HIS Wrath which occurs in the 7th year of the 70th Week, but Tribulation is common. Look at the Christians in Iraq.

            Salvation is through grace, sanctification is another matter. Check out Daniel 11:35. Notice even those with insight are refined. Salvation has nothing to do with going throught the Great Tribualtion or not. God never promised we wouldn’t endure Tribulation, in fact Jesus promised we would in John 16:33. He only promised we wouldn’t endure His Wrath which occurs after the Rapture during the Day of the Lord (7th Year of the 70th Week.)

            If tribulation doesn’t function in this manner then what does this mean? “And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint” (Rom. 5:3-5)

            Now as for the timing of the Rapture AFTER the Great Tribulation, I recommend Alan Kurschner’s website and book “Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord.” On my site check out here. (although this is only one proof, there are dozens throughout the Bible that confirm this.)

            Finally, as for the purpose of the tribulation, refining the Church as silver in fire is only one purpose. The main purpose of the church in the 70th Week is to proclaim the gospel for the first 6 years (until the Rapture). We are those circling Jericho showing the Ark of the Covenant (Jesus) to the world until the walls fall down

  13. 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8

    “For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming.”

    Who do you think “he who now restrains” is?
    If your answer is the Holy Spirit, my next question is: how can He be taken out of the way without taking the body of Christ He inhabits?

    1. THe rapture in Revelation? Its actually easy. When does the rapture occur in the N T? In Matt 24, Jesus says it takes place when the sun moon and stars are darkened. THen a great trumpet sounds, the last trumpet, and Jesus sends his angels to gather the elect from the four corners of the earth. Jesus said also, that 3 1/2 years before this event, the Antichrist invades ISrael.

      So we have a framework (by Jesus):

      A invasion when people say peace
      3 1/2 years of great distress
      Jesus comes back at armageddon with sun moon and stars darkened.
      A rapture takes place at the last trumpet.

      WE see this very same framework in revelation 6-7:

      REV 6
      Antichrist takes peace
      All sorts of famines and distress (for 3 1/2 years) We know the ac will rue for that long- right?
      The Lord comes back with the sun moon and stars being darkened.

      REV 7
      144k are marked to protect them for God wrath–makes sense as at the end of Rev 6, God s wrath is starting to fall. (Kings: hide us from the wrath!)

      A great multitude in heaven just “shows up.” Where did they come from? john says… Who are they? (They were not here just a second ago!)

      Thats the rapture,and its in the same position in the last 3 1/2 years as Jesus in matt 24 and Rev 6 and 7: as the Lord starts to come back, the sun moon and stars are darkened, the Lord send out his angels to gather the elect.

      Same words by Jesus and John, thus we have the

      Same event

      So matt 2415-31 and Rev 6 and 7 have the same story which includes the rapture!

      The above story is repeated several times in revelation, and always with the rapture taking place at Armageddon, as Rev 16 says: Behold I come like a thief–at armageddon. (jesus comes like a thief at the rapture right?)

      Even rev 10 and 11 have the rapture story:
      Rev 10: the mystery of God is ABOUT to happen!
      Rev 11: the mystery of God DOES happen after the last 3 1/2 years of time-and at the 7th trump too!

      Alan Brooks

      1. Alan, I’m Pre-wrath rapture-wise, at the 7th seal of Revelation, at the last moment of the 6th year. There is tremendous evidence of this timing in multiple books of the bible. However, a simple look at Rev 19 shows the wedding feast of the Lamb taking place in heaven THEN it shows Christ returning with the Church on white horses. We know from Deuteronomy that a man may not go to war for 1 year after his wedding. Christ marries the church at the rapture on Yom Teruah 7th year of the Tribulation; returns a year later on Yom Kippur, at which he fights Armageddon. Noah was in the Ark 1 year 10 days which is the exact length of time between Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur of the next year. As in the “days” of Noah so shall be the coming of the Son of Man.

        In regard to Jesus coming like a thief at the rapture; he does not. Read 1 Thess. 5, it clearly states the Day of the Lord will not come as a thief to us, just to the unrighteous. We will know the timing, the rapture and DOL happen on Yom Teruah, the hidden day, the day and hour no man knows. It is called the day and hour no man knows because it can be any one of two days determined by the sighting of the new moon. This is the same day that the Last Trumpet sounds. The last trumpet is not the 7th trump but rather a special trumpet blast on Yom Teruah (“the last trumpet” is a Jewish idiom, not to be taken literally. It is not the “last” trumpet even blown.) Consider reading “The Last Shofar” by Lenard and Zoller. They provide a lot more info on these things.

        As for the mystery of God at the 7th Trumpet, please look at rev 10:7 “but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets” The angel’s trumpet hasn’t sounded yet, JUST HIS VOICE. It is the final one of the 7 Thunders that the VOICE of this angle speaks. A mystery is something that is yet unknown. These 7 Thunders are spoken to the inhabitants of the earth by the angels blowing the 7 trumpets. They are currently sealed. After the 7th Thunder, all that is to be known will be known.

        Hope all this is helpful.

    1. Johnny, thanks for reading. Yes, I was once Pre-Trib as well, but after I looked at what the Bible says, it was pretty obvious that is a man-made idea.

      No, I don’t believe we are in the Tribulation (70th Week of Daniel) yet. There are several things that must happen first. If you read Daniel 8 you will see a prophesied war that happens before the Antichrist, who Daniel calls the “little horn,” arises. If you read ARE WE ABOUT TO SEE IRAN FULFILL DANIEL 8? on this site, you will learn that I believe the war is between Iran and Turkey. That article describes many of the events that are to happen before the 70th Week begins. Daniel 9:27 tells us that Week begins with the strengthening of a covenant between the Antichrist and Israel.

    2. Johhny, I guess to me, the most powerful arguments against pre trib are:

      The disciples asked Jesus what are the signs of your coming? And if you are pretrib, one has to believe that Jesus spent all of Matthew 24 giving signs about his coming that do not apply to you and me, but to “tribulation saints.” And he NEVER says A WORD about the secret coming before the tribulation!

      Also, if one reads Matt 24, the phrases, “one taken one left, and watch for you do not know on what day your Lord comes,” are used by the pretrib people, and yet its obvious that those apply to the Matt 24 rapture and coming- and not some secret 7 years before coming.


      Alan Brooks

      1. Alan: If Christ does not know the hour of his coming, he probably does not know if his coming is pre-wrath or post-trib, but my guess is he knows it’s not pre-trib.

        1. I agree-Jesus said the rapture is prewrath- revelation 16: Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up
          12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared…. 15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

          Jesus comes like a thief at armageddon…. simple really

          1. This is a great teaching point Alan. Glad you brought it up. When does Jesus come like a thief? At the Second Coming and at the rapture which happens at the sixth seal of Revelation in the sixth year of the Tribulation. Notice in Jesus’s statement he doesn’t say “you”, he says the “one.” Church is already with Jesus in heaven. Paul’s teaching on “like a thief” reference involves the Day of the Lord:”For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief.” (1 Thess. 5: 2-3 NASB). Obviously Paul is teaching the Day of the Lord will not take us by surprise. Jesus additionally says, “Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.” Both of these references I make here, refer to the Rapture since the day of the Lord immediately follows it. Notice both speak of “you” not the “one.” The Church is still on earth. Peter also pictures the Day of the Lord coming “like a thief.” “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” (2 Pet. 3:9-10 NASB) Jesus comes “like a thief” to rapture the Church after the sixth seal of Revelation is broken in the sixth year. But Christians will know when he is coming! Then at the end of the complex PAROUSIA at the end of the 7th year, Jesus descends to the earth “like a thief to fight at Armageddon.

            Three of these refer to initial coming of Jesus on the clouds to rapture us and pour out his year long wrath. The one you mention refers to Armageddon and appropriately it does not say “you” like the rest do.

            In my new book coming out next month, I explain what the Jewish Idiom “like a thief” means and explain this teaching and how it relates to Matt. 24:42-44 and why Jesus says that odd bit about losing your garments.

          2. NELSON, Good answer!

            THanks for taking the time to answer. Personally, not that it matters really in the big picture, I THINK that the rapture will happen when Jesus comes back, AFTER the great the great tribulation, or after the great distress which last 3 .5 years.

            You know, that is Jesus Christ himself saying that and so to back in time to one year before and make something up is rather … mm…. “different”.

            But hey Ive seen it all…..

            My take is that the bible has ONE STORY about the end, one last trumpet and one rapture, which Jesus himself said would happen AFTER the 7 years or pre wrath.

            Sure people can make up the last trumpet is a Jewish trumpet, or the rapture happens in MAtthew 24 is SOME OTHER rapture? GEEESCH! Why>?

            TO ME its simple: THere is one last 3.5 year time frame and its as follows:

            It starts with an invasion of ISrael by the Antichrist.
            Israel FLEES!

            The AC rules of 3.5 years

            After that distress of explicitly 3,5 years, AFTER THAT Jesus said:

            29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

            To me, thats the rapture, and that the last trumpet and then we go to our rooms to wait for 5 months until the wrath passes by…..

            The Lord comes back at Armageddon and the rapture happens at the last trumpet, as Matthew 24 explicitly predicted.

            Seems very clear cut to me, but then, maybe its not!

            Alan Brooks

            PS the key is that the AC will rule for 42 months, and so to go back in time one year and start his end is not what the bible teaches….. 🙂

          3. I agree on so much of what you said. I recommend the book Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord, which will help put the rapture timing in perspective for you. It is a an excellent book all about those last 3.5 years.

  14. Nelson – as always, a great article which shows a lot of thought and effort put into your analysis. (Jeanne also made very good comments.) The only error I see is an extra “e” in KurschEner referencing the upcoming debate.
    As I noted in my last book, Antichrist 2016-2019:
    “Dead tribulation saints are requesting vengeance (God’s wrath) but there is no wrath or rapture of the faithful yet.”
    Personally, I don’t see the logic in assuming a rapture of early saints who escape the whole tribulation followed by the conversion of new saints who do have to suffer the tribulation. I imagine a single harvest after the tribulation has separated the wheat from the chaff and bad times have brought as many souls as possible into faith.

    1. Yes, David, a Pre-Trib rapture is based on fear. Those who died to self are already “dead” to the “old man.” To live is Christ, to die is gain.

      And good catch about the typo.

      1. Nelson: Have you thought of doing some extra research on the political situation of Ephesus under their evil Emperor Domitian, during the time that John received the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

        I personally think the political timing of AD 81-96 Roman Rule gives a lot of clue as to how AC will try to rule his world and persecute the Christians and Jews to his advantage.

        God meant to choose this emperor as a clue to how AC will claim to be God’s chosen, as Emperor Domitian claimed to be.

        If you are still writing your book, I highly recommend a chapter on Emperor Domitian and his ruling resemblance to the work of AC in the last days. Just like how God has shown the resemblance of God’s son in the works of Joseph, Moses and David.

        1. My first book is completed, at the printer and should be in stores and online in a month. My second book is being writen as we speak. I am aware of Domitian and the persecution of the Church. I am planning a post on Polycarp, Bishop of Smyna at some point, and planing to incorporate some of this into the new book. So we are thinking alike Afo, a good sign.

    1. I think everyone would love to see the Lord sooner, and it is human nature to want to avoid persecution. The Word of God, does not support this theory, however, and there is danger in believing and spreading it.

  15. A simple reading of Mt. 24 shows the Pre-tribulation rapture to be erroneous. Mt. 24:29-31 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. THEN will appear in heaven the sign of the SON of MAN, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, AND THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Mt. 24:36-44 is the scenario where: “One is taken and one is left.” This passage says three times, “so will the coming of the Son of Man be.” The only difference in these two passages is “coming,” is a verb in Mt. 24:29-31; and a noun in Mt. 24:36-44.
    Both passages speak of the very same event which transpires AFTER the tribulation of those days.The one taken is not taken to escape the Great Tribulation, it has already passed! The one left is not left to through the Great Tribulation, again it has passed! This event is at harvest time and corresponds to the Fall Appointed Times of the Lord known as Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement, and The Feast of Tabernacles, and the Last Great Day a total of 22 days.

    1. As far as the rapture in revelation, its there:

      REV 10:7

      7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

      the MYSTERY of God:=rapture—right?

      REV 11: re-description of the resurrection and rapture (of rev 10):

      The Witnesses Resurrected
      11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

      14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

      Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed
      15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

      we shall not all sleep, but at the LAST TRUMPET the DEAD SAHLL RISE, THEN we who are alive……sometimes last means well

      LAST! 🙂

      here in Rev 11: the dead witnesses rise, then the 7th trumpet blows and the living are raptured!

      1. Last Trumpet is a specific Jewish term for the last trumpet blast on Yom Teruah (Rosh Hashanah). Again as stated before, to another reader, Rev. 19 starts with the Wedding Feast of the Lamb THEN Christ rides the white horse and he and his armies return to the earth. How can that be if the bride isn’t already in heaven. Also since Jewish wedding laws prohibit a man from going to war for one year, how can Christ make war unless the wedding was at least one year earlier. Also why are the those who have come out of the Great Tribulation in Rev. 7 there before a single of the Trumpet judgments blow? I suggest you read Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord by Alan Kurschner first. It will answer nearly all your questions.

        Mystery of God does not equal rapture. It is the complete plan of God to restore man’s inheritance.
        Witnesses resurrection does not have to be same as rest of the world. It can be a year later. I do not have the witnesses time frame completely figured out yet. Nor Mystery Babylon. Those are elements I am still working on.

        1. Nelson I think you have fallen into the trap of think revelation is in sequence: one after another.. its not ——- you are doing just what the pre tribers do: saying there are 2 “mysteries,” two “last” trumpets, three resurrections and a partridge and pear tree.

          Like I said, revelation has christ returning 4 times! will he come back four times? no!

          We already saw where Christ came back in rev 6 right?

          revelation, like much of the Old test is the same information described over and over again. This is why the last trumpet blows in rev 10 and 11. and Jesus says I come like a thief in rev 16 AT ARMAGEDDON! why? (because he comes at armageddon already described once at the end of rev 6)

          the consistent theme in the bible is that jesus will come back with the sun moon and stars being darkened. that happens in rev 6, Isaiah 13, 34, 24, etc etc jeremiah 4 jeremiah 6 ez 39, ex 11, ez 17……

          All of the OLD test ends with Jesus coming back and a trumpet and a rapture too……

          So revelation is a series of pictures about the different aspects of the end of time:

          the Antichrist
          his killing christians
          his mark
          the Lord coming back on a white horse

          The Lord only comes back once ya know 🙂

          1. There is a sequence to most of Revelation, the seals THEN the trumpets THEN the bowls.

            When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour and I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.(Rev. 8:1-2 NASB)
            (the seventh seal opens up into the seven trumpets, this shows sequence)

            Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. (Rev. 15:1 NASB)
            (Notice that the seven bowls are last, this demands a sequence)

            As far as Jesus coming once, he comes once BUT it is a complex PAROUSIA (presence) lasting over 1 year 10 days (the length of time Noah was in the Ark). He is first SEEN coming on the clouds and raptures his church. It is not until he returns on his white horse that he LANDS upon the earth. The intervening 1 year period is the Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath.)

          2. Nelson As far as your Revelation being in sequence issue, I was thinking you were saying the last trumpet and the mystery of God in Revelation are not the last trumpet and the rapture…. or am I wrong?

          3. Alan, the 7th Trumpet is not the same thing as the “last Trumpet” which is a specific Jewish idiom about Yom Teruah. I recommend the book “The Last Shofar” by Lenard and Zoller. There is a lot of great info in that book. A Shofar or ram’s horn is the type of trumpet Paul was discussing.

            I am also saying the mystery of God is much larger than simply the rapture. In the NT, “mystery” means something God had not yet revealed at that point.

        2. Nelson: The 1 year wedding theory makes sense to me, however 1 year duration for God’s wrath seems like eternity to me!

          What will AC be doing during that last year, if God is showing his wrath upon the earth for more than 360 days?

        3. Nelson, have you figured out the beast with seven heads and ten horns in Revelation 13?
          Have you ever heard of the New World Order? Are these two related?

          1. Henry, I have figured out the beast with 7 heads but not the ten horns/ten toes. Is the New World Order related? Maybe. We know the ten toes are half “iron (Islamic Caliphate)” and half clay. I’m not sure what clay represents yet.

            Since the Bible is a middle eastern-centric book, I find it doubtful the empire of the beast is world wide. We see references in Revelation to 1/4 of the earth and 1/3 of the earth. It makes more sense that the empire extends over that amount of land or people. I haven’t had a revelation yet as to what it exactly entails. I don’t think it is as easy as picking 10 nations from Ezekiel or something like that.


    I think, in fact know, that revelation is a series of pictures of the last 3 1/2 years or great tribulation, which starts with what?

    The antichrist taking peace, and ends with what?

    Armageddon, the rapture, the resurrection all taking place at once.

    Much of the bible was written in what I call description, re-description. This is where a prediction is made with an “overview,” then more details about that same prediction are given. Examples?

    Genesis 1: the creation, is told, then re-told again with different details.

    Daniel and Jesus gave an overview of the last 3 1/2 years of time:

    A treaty for 7 years.

    An invasion by the Antichrist (where he sets up the abomination)

    He rules for 42 months.

    The Lord comes with a trumpet.

    REVELATION’s overview of this time frame is found in Revelation 6:

    The white horse (the antichrist) and the red horse take peace.
    (When will the Antichrist take the peace? Only at the 3 1/2 year mark of Daniel’s final 7: right?)

    We know that he rules for 42 months right? (Rev 13)

    Then what happens? Matthew 24: Jesus: “After the tribulation of those days, or AFTER the last 42 months of time,”

    The Lord comes back, with the sun, moon and stars being darkened, and yes thats exactly what we see at the end of Revelation 6: (This is the same event as Matthew 24 describes as well, with Jesus coming back after the tribulation and the sun moon and stars darkened.)

    ……the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

    So we have an overview of the last 42 months in rev 6.

    Ok so what would we expect next to take place? We would expect the 144,000 to mark for protection form the wrath of God, and indeed thats exactly what happens next!

    Rev 6 The Antichrist takes peace and invades Israel.
    (We know from other texts that he will rule from Israel for 42
    The Lord comes back with the sun moon and stars darkened.

    Rev 7 The 144,000 are marked for their protection from the wrath of
    God. (we would expect that as as the Lord comes back, the
    kings cry out HIDE US FROM THE WRATH OF GOD!)
    (Rev 6:16) And so what we expect is actually what is listed
    here, right?
    And the saints who made it through the great tribulation,
    or the last 3 ½ years, will be in heaven as they have been
    raptured. (Jesus said that as he comes back, the trumpet will
    sound and gather the elect)

    So yes the saints are there in heaven as they have
    been raptured as the Lord comes back at armageddon.
    Even REV 16 says this fact also: Jesus comes like a thief AT
    ARMAGEDDON!) OK so What’s next?

    Rev 8 The wrath of God hits the whole earth. And gets really bad in ….

    Rev 9 where locusts come from the pit to sting men and a 200 million
    man strange beast army will kill a 1/3 of all men.
    (and democrats are honest-that’s how we really know the end
    of the world is here!)

    Thus, Revelation 6,7, 8, and 9 are one single 3 1/2 painting about what will take place at the end of time, from the white horse antichrist taking peace by invading Israel, to his 3 1/2 year great tribulation causing famine and death, to the second coming to the wrath of God falling: its all here!

    Revelation 11,10, 13, are ALSO all re-descriptions with added details about this same time frame!

    Think of it this way. If we had a museum dedicated to Pearl harbor, we would have 30 pictures of that same event. We would NOT ASSUME that PEARL HARBOR was attacked 30 times, would we? No, we would not! We would know that there were just 30 different pictures of the

    Likewise, the book of Revelation is many pictures of the last 3 1/2 years. Whats interesting is the fact that many Old testament books are also many different pictures of the same time frame, and yet, no one ever looks at those texts, do they? But they also have the same information, and even use the same words and phrases to describe this same time frame AMAZING EH?

    Alan Brooks

    1. Alan, you will have to read my second book. Revelation is a picture of all seven years. I do not have time to explain it all, but let’s just take your Daniel comment. We know from Daniel 9;27 that the Abomination is set up at the midpoint. Now read Daniel 11:21-31 notice ALL the events prior to the abomination. These occur in the first three years. Notice all the war. This is where the AC takes peace in Year 2. Again you will have to read the book. Read Matt. 24. The Abomination is in verse 15-16. Although 9-14 is also last 3.5 years, 4-8 is not and matches the first 3 seals of Revelation, which matches Daniel 11:21-31, which matches numerous other references. In fact there are 7 pictures in scripture of these 7 years.

      1. AS FAR AS DANIEL 11:

        Nelson, One of my discoveries, if you could just please think about it for a moment, (and not just out of hand dismiss it) is how the bible states a prophecy: then repeats that same prophecy again with different details.

        The daniel verse you mentioned are just such an example….. so what do I mean? Now lets go to Daniel 11, its another example:

        I would say first of all, that Daniel 11:29-39 is the proper idea that is followed by the restatement of the same prediction in Daniel 11:40-44:

        My theory is that the Antichrist invades to start the last 3 1/2 years and that ends with the Lord coming back and killing him near jerusalem right? So what then does Daniel 11:29-39 say?

        We sort of have a TIME STAMP here with the phrase the abomination right?

        31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. Jesus and Daniel say the “abomination” starts the LAST 3 1/2 years right? And it THE abomination, not one of several….

        NOW HERE IS THE COOL PART! I was trained that the next verse means that there is a pincher movement between the northern king, the southern king and the antichrist, right? But really, if one reads this text carefully, one sees that the whole chapter of Daniel 11 is about the kings of the north and south…..and no one else……

        SO DANIEL 11: 39-44 are the movie flashback of Daniel 11:21-39:

        Essentially, Daniel 11: 29-39 says:

        the Antichrist invades ISrael and sets up the abomination and stops the sacrifices….SO TO HAVE YOUR interpretation, one must say he does that, and then GOES BACK OUT to face the kings of the North and south! I think as follows:

        Daniel 11:39-44

        40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him (ATTACK THE KING OF THE SOUTH) like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41

        (You see the below is the statement of when he goes into Israel and sets up the abomination–in the previous set of verses)

        He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon.

        (So to have your interpretation, he has to enter ISrael TWICE…. as he already entered it and set up the abomination—– the one and only abomination where the Antichrist stops the sacrifices only ONE TIME!)

        42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

        so the above texts of 39-44 are a restatement or “movie flashback” to the time when the Antichrist enters ISrael and sets up the abomination, and that happens once at the 3 1/2 year mark….

        DANIEL 29-39: THE OVERVIEW: starts with the abomination…..
        DANIEL 39-44 THE RE-STATEMENT.. starts with an invasion, that causes the abomination………

        You see a clue here that no one thinks about is the pEACE WORD,and the FLEE WORD……

        EZEKIEL 7-11:



        ANTICHRIST: abomination

        So NO, Daniel 11:29-39 is a prophecy that is described: the KING OF THE NORTH Antichrist entering into Jerusalem and setting up the ABomination……

        THen re-told again: the AC invades Israel and then dies when God comes back “where no one will help him”

        please read carefully and think about this for a moment–like I said the AC will not invade twice only once


        1. Alan, please forgive me but I had to edit your comment that was too long. Consider writing your own post on this topic. We agree much more than disagree. What I think you’re missing is the first 3 1/2 years found in Dan. 11:21-30. This is not recapitulated in the later verses. Just like Jesus’s Olivet Discourse and Revelation, the amount of information on the first 3 1/2 years is limited. 3/4 of the material deals with the Great Tribulation, the Time of Jacob’s Distress. This is natural, but there is some information on the first 3 1/2 years that we shouldn’t overlook.

          Just as you discussed with the Abomination in verse 31 being a time stamp, there is one in verse 22-23 “The overflowing forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant. After an alliance is made with him he will practice deception, and he will go up and gain power with a small force of people.” This is the Covenant with Sheol that marks the beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel.

          Then he attacks Egypt and Israel, but look at the result in verses 27-28: “As for both kings, their hearts will be intent on evil, and they will speak lies to each other at the same table; but it will not succeed, for the end is still to come at the appointed time. Then he will return to his land with much plunder; but his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action and then return to his own land.” He is NOT successful in the first 3 1/2 years. There is a reason he is not successful in the first 3 1/2 and IS successful afterward: he has demonic assistance in the final 3 1/2.

          verses 21-30 is not information that is recapitulated later. It is the first half of the “week.” The rest is the Great Tribulation.

          1. Nelson thanks for your reply on Daniel 11. Sorry for the long post. I felt I had to explain in detail where I was coming from.

            Thank you for seeing the point I was trying to make. First of all I was wondering if you agreed with me about the pincher movement so many mis read? Sure, I see your point about Daniel 21-29. To me, you are assuming that this is the first half of the tribulation, aren’t you? Isn’t it possible that its 2 other possibilities?

            A Another time, even the IRan Iraq war

            B Another recapitulation of the Dan 9:27 peace treaty (vs 21) and then

            the Antichrist’s invasion of “the prince of the covenant,” which I would
            guess is Israel, how about you?

            So the question becomes , will the king of the north invade Israel, the prince of the covenant during the first half of the tribulation? I would say no. Verses 23-24 could yet be another restatement or many things, certainly not meaning the first half of the tribulation.

            ANd finally verses 25-28 to me anyway is 100% the same restatement as the rest of Daniel 11:

            The king of the north invades the king of the south, and then turns back to invade ISrael.Once again, I would ask you to consider how the Antichrist will not come against Israel TWICE will he? ANd yet verse 22 says just that.

            Also, consider how the rest of the Old testament always has the same story about the end:

            (42 months of reign)

            Sop the above takes place 25 times in the Bible, and So I would give that more weight when trying to understand Daniel 11:21-29, which means No the AC will NOT HAVE INVADED ISRAEL during the first half of the tribulation, will he? OF COURSE NOT! 🙂

            (unless the prince of the covenant is some other nation)

            CHeers Alan

          2. Alan,

            Dan. 11:22 occurs before the covenant is signed. Because we have not “seen” this we can’t know for sure, but my guess is that Israel invades Assyria before the 70th Week begins and LOSES. This gives the AC who is a “little horn” the political capital to be able to sign the famous Covenant with Sheol with Israel. This may have peace treaty aspects to it but it likely permits Israel to begin sacrifices as well. You asked if the Prince of the Covenant is someone other than an Israeli leader: maybe. It could be a Pope. I assume Israeli but maybe not.

            Immediately have this Treaty is signed the rest of his realm enters a brief time of tranquility. It is then he “plots” against fortresses and invades Egypt for the first time. In both cases he FAILS. This is how we know this is first half of the 70th Week. It is then he takes “action” against the covenant. The Greek Septuagint word here is POIEO which is an interesting word. It can mean “make a path,” “produce,” “to operate, or exercise activity.” It is the identical word found in Rev. 13:5 where the beast was given authority to “act”. Except here in the first half of Daniel’s 70th he doesn’t have the authority yet. So he returns to his own land. He doesn’t invade, he prepares his path. That is my “Nelson” translation. All of this points to the first half. This isn’t at all equivalent to the second half where he does invade.

          3. and of course the treaty of daniel 9 starts some sort of peace.. and the AC BREAKS the treaty at the mid point…..

            You are asserting that the AC breaks the treaty BEFORE THEN…

            DANIEL 9:
            27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
            But in the middle of the week
            He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
            And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
            Even until the consummation, which is determined,
            Is poured out on the desolate.”

          4. Alan, notice what he brings to an end at the midpoint is sacrifice and offering not peace. I am not saying Peace isn’t a component but it isn’t the only component. Also if you carefully read my last comment you will see that the AC “acts” or “paves the road” for his future invasion. This isn’t necessarily breaking the peace.

  17. Good word. Thank you. I refer you to the second article of the attached link titled “pre Trib unfair?” (Sidenote–The first article I believe to be spot on). What struck me the hardest about this writing is the prevailing belief that God is pouring out His wrath during the entire 70th week, and since, yes, we are not appointed to wrath we will be raptured. So what happens when (assuming we have not already been martyred) the 70th week arrives and we and those we have taught this wrong interpretation haven’t been removed! GOD LIED. LOVE WAXING COLD. FALLING AWAY. DANGER DANGER. Chilling thought.

    The author states that he is being challenged on his pre Trib belief. Glad to hear that.

    1. Interesting article. The writer obviously hasn’t debated Alan Kurschner. However, when your web address is “rapture ready” I guess he feels the necessity to defend the Pre-Trib. You are exactly correct on the danger of believing in a pre-trib rapture. Chapter 5 of my new book discusses this at some length.

  18. Nelson, I agree that the pre-trib view is arrogant, especially considering the unimaginable suffering and persecution being perpetrated on Christians around the world, particularly in Islamic countries. And how anyone could come to Christ if all the saints are removed beforehand? I’ve even people say that the Holy Spirit is removed at the rapture. How could anyone come to Christ without the Holy Spirit’s involvement? That just is not possible.

    Also, as Dalton Thomas has said, if the pre-Trib view is right, then Jacob’s trouble becomes Jacob’s problem. So so much for loving the Jew. A recent acquaintance of mine asks his pre-Trib friends, “Would you choose to be left behind in order to save the Jews?” In other words, you say you love the Jew? Then you may very well get the chance to prove it.

  19. Nelson,

    When I read Thessalonians, Chapter 4, I envision Paul explaining to the converted Jews that friends and relatives who died before Christ incarnate would still be gathered to him as long as they obeyed the commandments and lived righteous lives under the old covenant. He emphasized this by saying when Jesus returns, he will call the dead to be raised first, giving them priority status. And since even Jesus physically died before being resurrected, they were troubled as to what happens to believers who don’t experience death? The human body is so sinful that God cannot allow it in paradise as it is. So Paul explains that the bodies of the those alive will be transformed, enabling them to forever be with Christ, just as the dead prophets and saints who were resurrected first. This all happens at the last trump, at the return of Christ in the clouds as lightening, seen by all, when the entire world is pitch black due to a black sun and a red moon. Then he touches down on the mount of olives and kills antichrist with a mere breath.

    The pre tribulation people are never going to be convinced they are wrong through debates. Only the Holy Spirit can show them the way. Praying for them is all that can be done.

    I don’t see, never did, a rapture before the 70th week. And besides, why would the most loving God take his people and leave so much tragedy, death, chaos, turmoil. I think the pre trib rapture writers make Jesus out to be a hostile and evil, ET without a stitch of mercy or forgiveness. Which of course is totally contrary to what he is. The unpardonable sin is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. The entire rapture premise is a blasphemy of the Spirit of God which is undeniable Truth. There is no truth to the Rapture theory. Jesus returns on a specific date and time, and the angels gather his people, dead and alive to meet him in the air. That’s it.

    1. Hi kensme, Although you are correct that OT prophets and saints are saved and will definitively be part of the rapture, Paul isn’t explicitly talking about them. He is talking about those saved “through Christ.” Read that section of 1 Thess. 4 again. The faith of the OT saints in the Messiah to come saved them IMO. Also be careful when you say there is no truth in the rapture. I recommend the book “Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord” by Alan Kurschner. Tell me your thoughts after you read it.

      For example, look at Revelation 19. The first event is the Wedding Feast of the Lamb in heaven and THEN the Lord and his army in white robes return to the earth. If there is no rapture how did the saints get to heaven to become the Bride of Christ? In the book “The Last Shofar,” Lenard and Zoller suggest the rapture occurs on Yom Teruah at the very end of the sixth year of the 70th Week of Daniel AFTER the sixth seal of Revelation and before the Wrath of God is poured out. This allows the saints to be with Christ off the earth for 1 year and 10 days just as Noah was in the Ark that exact time. It also allows Christ to remain in heaven 1 year before going to war as was Hebrew law. This is called a “Pre-wrath rapture,” after the Great Tribulation but before the Wrath of God.

      There will only be a remnant left before the rapture. In 1 Thess. 4 where Paul says “those who remain” the Greek implies those who have survived a great tragedy. So Pre-Wrath or Post Trib aren’t that different, expect for those survivors, and that Pre-Wrath answers a lot of mysteries that Post-Trib can’t answer such as Rev. 19.

      Also believing in a rapture is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Choosing to not believe in Christ is. All of us will have some error in our theology. If having perfect theology saves, we are all in trouble.

  20. Nelson:

    I am also reminded of this passage in Revelation 6:9-11:

    “9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O [k]Lord, holy and true, [l]will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.”

    How do the pre-Tribulation folks interpret this passage, which clearly shows these “saints” were martyred DURING the great tribulation? (This means the Holy Spirit must also be active during this time; He is not taken out of the world; otherwise no one could be saved.)

    Another interesting point is that in verse 11 we see that these saints are “given” white robes. They do not put them on. Why? Because they have not yet been resurrected and therefore do not yet have their glorified bodies.

    Later, however, in Revelation 7:9-14 we see that the saints are now “wearing” their white robes (vs. 9), i.e., they have now been resurrected, gathered safely in heaven, and are in their glorified bodies. Verse 13 reiterates this: “These IN white robes” (emphasis mine).

    “9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

    “Salvation belongs to our God,
    who sits on the throne,
    and to the Lamb.”
    11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

    Praise and glory
    and wisdom and thanks and honor
    and power and strength
    be to our God for ever and ever.
    13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

    14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

    Is this how you would interpret these passages?

    1. My understanding is that Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers assume the current church is removed from the earth prior to the 70th Week of Daniel. They then believe that millions will come to faith during that period. They call these “Tribulation saints.” These are the ones they believe are martyred and be-headed. It is the only way they can account for the vast numbers of believers martyred during that period. The problems with that belief system are:

      1. There is no biblical support for a Pre-Tribulation rapture and overwhelming support for a rapture after the Great Tribulation.
      2. It ignores one of the main purposes of the 70th Week of Daniel: to refine the bride like precious metal through fire.
      3. It ignores the role the Church will play in God’s redeeming the whole world.

      A Pre-Tribulation rapture is a bit arrogant on the part of the Church. Look around at the Church today. Are today’s self-absorbed saints really what you picture the Bride of Christ to be? Also why would God remove his best workers prior to the world’s greatest need of them? In my current book I ask, “the question isn’t ‘why would God allow us to be persecuted like that?’ We should ask, ‘why wouldn’t God allow us to share in his victory?'”

    2. I never noticed the difference between being given the robes and then later wearing them. almost like a surety or guarantee of some promise to pay later as in Genesis 38 where a seal, cord and staff were used to promise payment later. Tamar was somewhat left holding the bag, but she was eventually vindicated and in the birth lineage of Jesus Christ. We can learn much about how God governs and what He will do in the future by carefully digesting what patterns happened repeatedly in the OT.
      Thanks for bringing out this “small” point. It’s actually quite huge! She was 3 months pregnant and condemned before being justified. Scripture doesn’t say how long the saints will have to wait.

      1. In terms of how long the saints have to wait, Able has been waiting nearly six thousand years. Some longer than others.

        In the non-canonical book of Enoch, there are multiple holding places for the souls in heaven prior to the day of judgment. One for the righteous, one for the unrighteous, and one for the Martyrs and Able is specifically mentioned.

  21. There is an author who believes that the book of Revelation is not written in chronological order, and thinks the rapture will be “mid-trib.” (I can’t remember all of the reasons for this.) What do you think of the idea of Revelation being out of order chronologically?

    1. Thanks Janae,

      I am in the process of writing a second book which will be about the 70th Week of Daniel (“the Tribulation”). My current book is about getting ready for Jesus in this pre-Tribulation Period. The second one will be about how Christians can overcome the time of trial coming upon the whole earth. In that second book I have a “map” of when everything occurs in Revelation.

      Revelation is “mostly” chronological. Chapter 2 and 3 (the letters to the 7 Churches) are a prophecy that covers the entire 7 year 70th Week of Daniel (NOTICE: this is new information) so they are out of order. We then enter a chronological section. Chapters Four through Eleven show the opening the the scroll with 7 Seals. This section is chronological with only slight exceptions. Chapters Twelve through Fourteen are the 7 Visions and are events are “parenthetical” events that occur at various points during the 7 year 70th Week. This section is NOT chronological. So as you can see there are chronological sections and sections that are not chronological (Chapters 2,3,12,13,14, 17,18)

      In regard to this article, that section is chronological AND all that matters in regard to the thesis of the article is that the opening of the scroll with seven seals happens during the 70th Week. If that is true (and the second book will prove it) then the thesis of the article holds up.

      1. Hi Nelson i just wanted to say your ministry here has shed new light to me on things.. I had before tried to believe in a pre trib rapture but i just could not bring myself to do it, something was not right. I could feel it like something nagging at me always.. It was always Jesus saying to watch and i ask if we dont know the day nor hour why watch? What are we watching for? I heard people say that just means to always be ready. We should always be ready for we dont know what will happen to us, we have no guarantee of tomorrow.. I do have a question if you could answer it please. I have always believed by reading scripture when we die our lives have not ended but instead we transition i guess is the word. Our soul still lives and we are not in limbo hanging out there not knowing anything. Paul said for him to die was gain but he cared for the people and wanted to stay watching over them. Even the 5th seal broken shows the souls of them that was slain crying out how long oh lord and jesus says to them rest a little longer. The word rest is also what god told daniel that he would rest then stand in the last day for his inheritance. Maybe i answered my own question. Some people refernce back in the old testament when we die our plans cease and thoughts perish and the dead know nothing..
        Thanks Nelson for your ministry

      2. Wow Nelson, so are you saying the letters to the seven churches are not in order?? That is a huge revelation!!! And does change everything doesn’t it???

        1. No, I believe they are precisely in order. I’m sorry if my answer wasn’t clear and led you to misunderstand. They align exactly with the “Pattern of Seven Events” found throughout scripture in such places as the 7 Seals (Rev. 6) and the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24 and Luke 21).

      1. The weight of proof is on those who, like you, say it isn’t. One must prove that not just say it. Now in all fairness, Cathy, there are major sections that are not chronological: Chapters 2-3, 12-14, and 17-19:10. However the majority of Revelation is chronological. The most important aspect of that is the order of Seals first, then Trumpets, then Bowls. To think otherwise is to open oneself up to all sorts of theological error such as a Pre-Trib Rapture or Post-Trib. Rapture. You can prove the order of Seals-Trumpets-Bowls for yourself by reading this article

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