Are We About to See Iran fulfill Daniel 8?

This morning I read that Iran is threatening direct action against ISIS if the radical state damages any “holy” Shia Muslim shrines in Baghdad.  According to the article, it is not clear whether that direct action will involve ground forces.  By means of this invasion will Iran fulfill Daniel 8?

Enter your email address to receive notifications of new posts, newsletters, and the inside scoop about the ministry by email

By submitting this form, you are consenting to receive marketing emails from: The Gospel in the End Times, PO Box 10757, Wilmington, NC, 28404, You can revoke your consent to receive emails at any time by using the SafeUnsubscribe® link, found at the bottom of every email. Emails are serviced by Constant Contact


To the secular world this is just another mideast headline.  Many in the USA, including the current administration, are probably looking forward to Iran playing the role of policeman keeping the “bad boy” ISIS in check.  Many are probably relieved to see the USA not having to get involved.  What the secular world is clueless about however, is the Biblical significance of an Iranian invasion of the Middle East.

I am not a sensationalist.  Many are probably aware that I take a wait and see approach to whether ISIS is truly the resurrected Beast of Revelation 13 and 17 and as to whether the Blood Moons have biblical significance.  In regard to an Iranian invasion of the Middle East however, there is no doubt.  Daniel Chapter 8 clearly prophesies this event as the first step in a prophecy that leads to the revealing of the Antichrist.  All Christians need to be watchful for this major end time event as our Lord commands.

The modern fulfillment of Daniel 8 may be shocking to you.  Many believe that Daniel 8 was fulfilled thousands of years ago by the Persians and the Greeks because events then were similar to the prophecy.  This close but not quite accurate fulfillment is known as a “foreshadow.”  What these expositors miss are the following  critical verses.

He said to me, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.”  Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright.  He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.”  (Dan. 8: 17-19 NASB)

The Angel Gabriel makes 3 separate references that this vision applies to the time of the end and the final indignation.  What could be more clear?  Mark Davidson was the first to realize the significance of these passages.  I remember the day I first read his writing.  I figuratively fell on the ground just like the prophet Daniel!  I was blown away.  If you are unfamiliar with this prophecy I bet you are experiencing a similar feeling right now!

The first question that should come to your mind is how did such an obvious passage miss detection for 2500 years?  This is a serious question.  The answer is bizzare.  God sealed the book of Daniel so its meaning was incomprehensible until the “time of the end.” (Dan. 12: 4)  The fact that we can now understand Daniel 8:17-19 proves we are in the time of the end.  You can read more about the concept of the sealing of Daniel here.

Now that we have established that all of Daniel 8 involves our world’s soon future, let’s look at the vision and why we can be absolutely sure it involves Iran.  In the vision a ram head butts its way westward, northward and southward (Dan. 8:3-5).  The ram is then attacked by a shaggy goat who defeats the ram (Dan. 8:5-7).   After the Angel Gabriel informs Daniel that this vision applies to the time of the end (further proof this is end time prophecy), he identifies the ram and the shaggy goat.

The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.  The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece (Dan. 8: 20-21 NASB)

These verses are one of the primary stumbling blocks of historic expositors.  They see the names of ancient kingdoms and think, “aha! this has an ancient fulfillment.”  Nothing could be further from the truth.  One verse earlier Gabriel advised Daniel that the entire vision concerns the appointed time of the end.  Media and Persia disappeared over a thousand years ago.  So why did the angel use the names of these ancient kingdoms?  The name of Iran (which occupies the same land as ancient Media and Persia) would have meant nothing to Daniel who lived 2500 years ago.  The angel gave Daniel names of the ancient peoples who occupied that piece of land that currently is Iran.  Those names Daniel was familiar with.  There is no doubt that if it “headbutts” west, north and south, Iran will fulfill Daniel 8.

Who is the goat?  The Hebrew word translated “Greece” is actually Yavan.  Yavan were an ancient people that occupied eastern Greece and western Turkey.  The principle city within the region is Istanbul.  The Angel is not referring to Greece but rather to the Yavan people who occupy modern Turkey!  Turkey is the goat.

Daniel has instructed us that a great war is about to take place between Iran and Turkey and Turkey will prevail.  It will be a war between Shia Muslim and Sunni Muslims.  There have been wars throughout history.  Why does scripture highlight this particular war?  Because it launches the career of the Antichrist.

Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land.  It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.  It even magnified itself  to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down.  (Dan. 8: 9 – 11 NASB)

The little horn is the Antichrist.  His coming is ushered in by this war we are about to witness.  Every Christian needs to aware of this prophecy.   Iran’s invasion will mark the beginning of the end.

The impacts of this war will be significant.  You can (and should) read more about this prophecy.  There is a section in my new book Are We Ready for Jesus? (due out in early 2015) about his prophecy.  You can also read about it here.  The definative work on the subject is Mark Davidson’s Daniel Revisited.  Please buy the book.  Time appears to be short.

45 thoughts on “Are We About to See Iran fulfill Daniel 8?”

  1. How many kings came after Cyrus is irrelevant. The fact that he and the other four I mentioned fulfil the Dan 11:2-4 prophecy is what proves my point.

    Dan 8 and 11 prophesy of the Persian empire – kings of the Persian empire. And the actions of those kings fulfil aspects of the Dan 9 prophecy. Yet you say: ” I see no biblical quote to link these prophecies.” As if there needs to be another visit from Gabriel to tell us they all link Cyrus and his four successors to that period in history, and the fulfilment of prophecies that could only be fulfilled back then.

    I say you don’t want to acknowledge the obvious link because it undermines everything you supported above in Davidson’s ridiculous ideas.

    Your third comment is nonsense, and irrelevant.

    1. First, the number of kings is relevant because the Bible says there are four more. Is the Bible wrong? Obviously not.
      Second, scripture interprets scripture through quotes and shared words. Those don’t exist between Dan. 8 and 9. Saying what you are saying is “forcing” a connection based on your historic only interpretation. Something you like to do.
      Third, Dan. 8 is not about Persian Kings after Cyrus, Two horns are mentioned.

      But it all comes down to what Dan. 8:17-19 truly says which is clear. We don’t need links to other chapters, the sense of the words tell us it is primarily about the future. This excursion into trying to link to Dan. 7,9, and 11 shows that you have no answer for what those verses say. I am heading out of the country in less than a week, so we will end this conversation here.

  2. If Cyrus fulfilled his roll in the 70 week prophecy by starting the building of the Temple and Jerusalem the next four kings prophesied are his successors. Remember, they were also involved in the rebuilding. And the prophecy does speak of four kings following Cyrus.

    If they are not his successors, but some future Iranian empire kings, it follows that the historical Cyrus can’t have been the first of those five kings. Therefore Cyrus would have to arise first in your Iranian empire, and he would have to fulfil his roll in the 70 week prophecy. And that would require an actual resurrection, because God only ever called one king by the name Cyrus. Isaiah 45:13

    The Persian empire ceased to exist. So there can be no more kings in the line of Cyrus. That is not an opinion. It’s the word of God. He said the Greeks destroyed it. And history confirms this. There is no indication of a revived Persian empire anywhere in prophecy. Nebuchadnezzar’s dream image depicted just one followed by the Greeks.

    And this means your Islamic Caliphate is the successor to a fantasy.

    1. First, as you are probably aware, there were more than four kings after Cyrus.
      Second, you are assuming a link between Dan. 8, Dan. 9 and Dan. 11. I see no biblical quote to link these prophecies. There are links between 8 and 11 but not with Dan. 9. Dan. 9 is independent of the other prophecies. You can’t just “make up” a link. You are prone to do a lot of that “creative” analysis in these recent comments.
      Third, when nations from Genesis are mentioned in scripture, they refer to LAND MASSES not political or people groups. This is a stumbling block for many.So although the ancient Persian empire is long gone, the land mass exists in modern Iran.

  3. I won’t continue with the debate regarding the evenings and mornings. I made my points.

    But you continue to duck my question regarding how that 70 week prophecy now connects to the re-building of Jerusalem, the Temple, and the coming of the Messiah. You do this by answering questions I didn’t ask.

    In order for your last days fulfilment of Dan 8 to be correct. The decree of Cyrus to build Jerusalem and the Temple will also have to be a future event. If the Persian ram hasn’t yet done its ramming, there can’t be any building, right!

    There will also have to be generations of time left for the prophecy of Dan 11: 2-4 to be fulfilled.

    I have said that these prophecies are in a process of historical fulfilment that will be completed in the future. You say they are future, last days events.

    Keeping in mind the fact that Dan 11:2-4 was a prophecy that involved generations of Persian kings. Tell us how your future Iranian empire is going to fulfil its part. And then how much time do you reckon for your presently none existent Islamic Caliphate to do its bit.

    And don’t try ducking the question with ‘ I’m trusting God for things I can’t explain’. God fulfils His prophecy through the agency of men. So the time factor is something that has to fit. And it’s something you have to ether explain or admit can’t be reconciled with your idea of what Dan 8:17-19 means.

    1. In regard to the supposed link between Dan. 8 and 9, why would Cyrus have to be yet future? I see no need for this.

      In regard to Dan 11. There are three views of this prophecy. Future from v. 36 on, future from v. 21 on and the radical future view that all of it will be future. I actually am watching Dan. 11:2-4 to decide which of the last two it will be.

      Behold, three more kings are going to arise in Persia. Then a fourth will gain far more riches than all of them; as soon as he becomes strong through his riches, he will arouse the whole empire against the realm of Greece. And a mighty king will arise, and he will rule with great authority and do as he pleases. But as soon as he has arisen, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four points of the compass, though not to his own descendants, nor according to his authority which he wielded, for his sovereignty will be uprooted and given to others besides them. Dan. 11:2-4

      One possible interpretation is that three kings have arisen in Iran since the Tehran Declaration after WWII, the Shah, and two Ayatollahs. If the current Ayatollah dies or is replaced and a new leader leads the invasion of Dan. 8, I might consider the radical futurist view. I currently hold the moderate futurist view beginning in v. 21 with everything else in Dan. 11 being past.

      The war of Dan. 8 could take place within as little as a year with Turkey being divided into four smaller nations. I anticipate we will see all of this within the next 10 years.

  4. The words used for evening and morning are singular. If they were plural in the Hebrew language they would end with ‘im’.

    The use of the words in Dan 8:14 is obviously to be understood as days. An evening and a morning equals one day. 2300 = 1150 days. The use of the words in Dan 8:26 also conveys a meaning of a day, and provides a linkage between the two visions.

    Dan 7:2 is originally Aramaic, so it is of no consequence that it’s expressed slightly differently. You threw that in to muddy the waters.

    Your second chapter is a classic case of ducking the question. There are numerous facts about the historical application of the 70 weeks prophecy which could only have been fulfilled during the reign of the Persian kings, starting with Cyrus.

    You say: “Almost all of Dan. 8 occurs outside of the 70 Weeks”.

    The restoration of the Temple and Jerusalem occurred during the reign of those Persian kings. So a massive portion of Dan 8 points to them and there part in that restoration. Remember, Daniels prophecies are about his people and Jerusalem. And those kings are inextricably intertwined with the two.

    So answer the question. How does the 70 weeks prophecy fit into a modern day Iranian and Islamic empire?

    1. Phil, you are grasping at the wind. Dan. 7:2 says “night” in Aramaic as well. Plus this is a dream which happens at night. The Jewish and Greek words for “evening” imply the time of sunset. This is not the time of dreams. The words “evening and morning” (singular if you prefer) from Dan. 8:14 are directly quoted in verse 26. This direct quote is what Gabriel is referring to not an oblique, concocted theory about the night vision of Dan. 7 actually being evening and the vision of Dan. 8 being during the morning even though it doesn’t say that. You can choose to make up theories all you want, but what God’s Word says must reign supreme.

      In terms of answering the question of how the 70 Weeks fit in with Dan. 8, the vision of Dan. 8 is about the rise of Antichrist both in the historic foreshadow of the rise of Antiochus IV and the the final fulfillment. It intersects with the 70th Week at this point: “It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down.” This is the Abomination of Desolation that occurs at the midpoint and is referred to in Dan. 9:27.

      So does the historic foreshadow intersect with the 70 Weeks. Yes, it does. But so does the final fulfillment.

  5. You said: “You claim Gabriel’s three time repetition was unnecessary? Obvious both Benson and yourself were unable to see it. It is necessary!!!”

    That statement proves my point. You don’t understand plain English, because what I said never so much as implied unnecessary.

    You further confirm the facts I pointed out to you concerning your refusal to change your views even when I prove them to be wrong. Dan 7 & 8 are linked. Proven by the angel referencing “evening and morning”: singular, not plural. We had this debate in the past, and I debunked your claims with solid exegesis that can be seen here:

    Okay, humour me. Lets say you are right, and the prophetic time-line runs through your Iranian empire followed by Islamic empire. Where does Dan 9 fit in? I will give you a link to my thoughts on the seventy weeks prophecy here. So you can debunk away:

    Tell me how that prophecy now connects to the re-building of Jerusalem, the Temple, and the coming of the Messiah.

    1. Phil, In terms of the “evenings and mornings”, the greek and the hebrew words in Dan. 8:14 and Dan. 8:26 are identical, whether you want to interpret them both as singular or both as plural. This is the reference. The greek and hebrew words used in dan 7:2 are different. Rather than “evening” they are for “night.” This is not a match. And Dan. 8 never says the time of day the vision occurred. This analysis is of yours is quite mistaken.

      In terms of Dan. 8 and 9, they are separate visions with separate focus and not related. Dan. 8 is about the rise of Antichrist. Dan. 9 is about the 70 Weeks, not at all the same focus. Almost all of Dan. 8 occurs outside of the 70 Weeks. Daniel was given Dan. 7 and he was upset about the little horn and his persecution of the saints. Dan. 8 explains him in more detail. Dan. 9 then precedes to give different information about the future of Israel.

  6. I am well aware of the various ways in which the original language is rendered. IT WAS YOU, NOT ME who chose to use that particular translation. Part of your problem is that you don’t get the meaning of the English language used by the translators. That was clearly demonstrated by your inability to see that my quote from Benson answered your question.

    “The vision is at the time of the end” does not mean what you understand it to mean. It doesn’t need to say the word ‘future’ because for those who understand the language and apply the contextual considerations I wrote of above, the future is obviously a part of its meaning.

    “The vision is at the time of the end” means it will come to completion at the time of the end. But like most prophecy, it will play out over a period of time which will see foreshadows, and fulfilment of some aspects that lead to its completion. Your insistence on totally confining it to the time of the end is not consistent with biblical prophecy, and is driven by your pre-conceived ideas of an Islamic caliphate. And that is blinding you to the truth.

    Your third and fourth paragraphs demonstrate what I am talking about when I say that you don’t use context. The visions of Daniel 7 and 8 are linked.
    “The vision of the evening and morning that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”
    If you understood this fact, and applied the correct meaning to Dan 7:17, you would be able to see what I see.
    Dan 8 is also inextricably linked to Dan11. But you dare not consider that fact, because once again, it undermines your claims that this is about your Islamic caliphate.

    The three repetitions calls us to take note of the fact that there is more to what is said than “that this is an end time prophecy”. What a ridiculous assertion that would be about one small passage in a book that is packed full of end time prophecy.

    Oh! So the Persian and Greek empires weren’t historically sandwiched between Babylon and Rome according to you. That’s interesting 🙂

    1. “The vision is at the time of the end” means it will come to completion at the time of the end.” PM

      Phil, I’m sure any rational person reading this quote would disagree with you. It means it happens at the time of the end. You claim Gabriel’s three time repetition was unnecessary? Obvious both Benson and yourself were unable to see it. It is necessary!!!

      Rev. 7 and 8 are not linked. The verse you quote about “evenings and mornings” is about verse 14 NOT about any linking of the the two visions. Dan. 8 is linked to Dan. 11 however by 23 separate similarities. This is an incredible number, some of which are direct quotes. I have an article about this as well and the table of these similarities is found in my book Revelation Deciphered. The Islamic Caliphate will ultimately be based out of Assyria as many verses claim. In Dan. it is the Kingdom of the North and King of the North.

      If you are unable to accept that “the vision is at the time of the end” means anything other than what it clearly says, that it is AT the time of the end, then I don’t think any of us on this site can help you. I have prayed for all our eyes to be opened to the truth.

  7. Okay, I will have one last go. No disrespect intended, but I think we must speak different languages if you can’t see that I have already fully answered your question.

    The phrase “pertains to” is used twice in the biblical text we’re discussing. I have already made it clear that I consider the scholars rendering of the original language to be correct. So I will not be persuaded by the opinion of someone using an app. That’s because I too use an app, and I know their limitations. Especially when they are used by someone who doesn’t take into consideration the context. And by context I don’t merely refer to the passage before and after. I am talking about the relationship with the rest of the Bible, both prophetic and historical, which I referred to in the fourth and fifth paragraph of my last post.

    I can’t speak for Benson. But I am 100% aware of near/far historical fulfilment, and take that into consideration whenever try to understand prophecy. But there is another principal that many overlook. Which is what I will call ‘the fullness of sin’. By which I mean the historical effect of acts and omissions made by biblical characters on the future world.

    And on balanced consideration of all the facts I have pointed to in this thread, I think ‘fullness of sin’ to be the correct understanding of what was meant. By this I mean that the acts and omissions of all the characters involved in the chapter 8 prophecy will feed an historical sequence that will culminate in the last days fulfilment of the prophecy. This does not preclude the historical partial, or even total fulfilment of some aspects of the prophecy.

    And that fully explains what is meant by: “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end. Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.”

    Davidson’s idea of an end-time Persian Empire, followed by an end-time Yavan Empire requires, for reasons I explained in my last post, a similar time slot in history to that taken up between Babylon and Rome. There simply isn’t enough time left. And I don’t think God is going to stop the sun in the sky just to make him right:)

    1. First of all Phil, for our other readers who might read these comment streams, the phrase “pertains to” only appears in certain English translation of Dan. 8:17-19. Please do not base an argument on a phrase that doesn’t even appear in the original language. For instance, the KJV says “for the time of the end shall be the vision”, the ESV says “the vision shall be for the time of the end.” The ASV says the vision “belongs to the time of the end”. YLT says “for at the time of the end is the vision.” And I think the Young’s Literal Translation comes the closest to the original Hebrew.

      Second, This passage in no way even comes close to saying that the vision will have an effect on the future. It says the vision is at the time of the end. If it was going to say it effects the future, that word would be used. It isn’t.

      Third, your theory of “this vision will effect the future” doesn’t address “I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation” from your translation. Obviously if he is letting us know what will happen in the future, he is explaining actual events. If he is showing effects, then effects would be shown, but it is events that are described, and those events are the events of Dan. 8:1-8, the vision. And universally, the description of Dan. 20:25 about apposing the Prince of Princes and being broken without human agency uniquely describes the Antichrist.

      Fourth, immediately after this three fold repetition, Gabriel interprets the vision for Daniel. If he had just said it would have effects on the future, this is where he’d show it. But he doesn’t, he begins with the Ram and Goat from Dan. 8:1-8, not effects of the future.

      Finally, the three time repetition of the reference to end times is crucial. The repetition of something three times in scripture shows intensity (see Barrick’s analysis eg. Holy, Holy, Holy). Gabriel wants Daniel and modern readers to not miss that this is an end time prophecy. He repeats this 3 times in three ways so no one with eyes that are open can miss it. I recommend that we all submit in humility to what this passage clearly says. I think you are letting your human reasoning “not enough time for this to happen” get in the way. God could fulfill Dan. 8:1-8 in a year or two, maybe even less. The historic foreshadows are just that. The future fulfillment does not need to take centuries.

      Then you mention Rome which has nothing to do with end times. Red Herring.

  8. 1) Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.”
    2) He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation,
    3) for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.

    The dictionary definition of the word ‘Pertains’ = to have reference or relation; relate. It does not mean ‘confined’.

    Benson’s commentary contains amongst his deliberations what I believe to be the correct understanding of what is said:

    “For at the time, or, to the time, of the end shall be the vision — That is, there is a precise time determined for the accomplishment of the vision, when it shall certainly be fulfilled.”

    One of the reasons I prefer this understanding is because the book of Daniel is full of prophecy that has become history. From our perspective we can see that the prophecy is connected to historical events and other prophecies recorded in many books of the bible. And it is impossible to push all that is prophesied by Daniel into the last days without breaking the links to Cyrus, Esther, Antiochus IV etc.

    So Davidson’s ideas not only require a repetition of the wars of the Diadochi. They also require a repeat of the Persian Achaemenid Empire, along with its biblically recorded interactions with God’s people and Jerusalem, which is part of the central theme of the book of Daniel.

    The historical arguments ‘are’ cut and dry because those that are correct are composed of historical/archaeological evidence and the inerrant word of God. You should be careful what you accept of the purely secular opinions because many are motivated by rejection of God’s word.

    1. Phil, you still only addressed one of the three references, the first. Also, using dictionary definitions of English words? Really? You know better than that. Look at the original language please. Benson, yourself, and nearly everyone else is thrown off by the near/far historical fulfillment. That is why Gabriel gave three (3) separate references to this being about the time of the end, the FINAL indignation, and the appointed time of the end. Instead of saying it once, Gabriel gave us 3 separate statements about the timing of the final fulfillment so that the discerning would not be thrown off by historic foreshadows.

      Saying the vision pertained until it was over is a ridiculous statement after all. To say it three separate times is even more ridiculous. All visions pertain until they’re over! Has there been a veil over the eyes of commentators about this verse, obviously there has. Your comment basically is “how can this happen?” I chose not to question how God will accomplish his word, I simply trust that he will. The question isn’t “how?” the question is what does God’s Word say; and three times he says it will take place at the time of the end.

  9. With regard to the first chapter of your last comment. I haven’t “blown anything off”. I have answered the point in full by telling you and Davidson that you are both so busy trying to create your eisegesis you ignore the most simple meaning of the language used.

    Your chapter 2 comment has no standing in history. Alexander was the first king of the Greek empire. (Macedonia was on another continent) Similar to the way George III was the first king of the UK as opposed to just England. It’s not a matter of how Alexander saw himself. It’s how God saw him!

    Chapter 3. Your historical knowledge is simply wrong. I think you must get it from the same source as that which tells you non-Romans destroyed the Temple. It’s pointless arguing with you on that issue until you start reading from history books rather than Richardson’s fables.

    It isn’t possible to divorce chapter 8 from the rest of Daniel. Or indeed to divorce it from the rest of biblical prophecy in the way you and Davidson try. And It is you who is quoting Davidson’s work. So don’t try to place restraints on my ability to rebut your claims, or protect him from the criticism his eisegesis deserves.

    1. Let’s focus on Dan. 8:17-19 and the three explanations that this will take place at the time of the end. Humor me and explain away each of the three again. each of the three, please. This biblical argument is primary.

      As for the historic arguments, I want you and all others to see that it is not as cut and dried as most have thought. Neither of us will prove the point to the other. So lets concentrate on the biblical argument that is definitive.

  10. Firstly, I didn’t say he was the first king of Macedonia. I said he was the first king of Greece. Which was also incorrect. I should have said the first king of the Greek Empire. Fulfilling his prophetic role as the prominent horn on the goat.

    Whilst it’s true to say there were initially many claimants to Alexander’s throne. After around forty years the Greek empire settled into four power blocks: Ptolemaic Egypt, Seleucid Mesopotamia and Central Asia,
    Attalid Anatolia, and Antigonid Macedon.
    Thus fulfilling the prophecy: The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

    With regard to the correct rendering of the original language that gave us the phrase: pertains to, I defer to the scholars. As should you.

    There is also the historical interaction between the Diadochi, prophesied by Daniel. That can’t be divorced from chapter 8. Do you seriously think we are going to see those centuries of conflict fulfilled by your coming Yavan Sunni Caliphate? Struth! We haven’t even got through the centuries of Persian rule yet, according to Davidson ;(

    1. Most crucial to interpreting Dan. 8 are the three-fold references to the vision being about the time of the end, nothing could be more clear. Answer each one of the three and don’t blow them off. Even the English translations are clear the vision is about the time of the end.

      In regard to the incomplete historic fulfillment, Alexander was the King of Macedon not a newly established empire. He greatly expanded his empire as the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Persians did in the past but none of these created a “new” empire. He never considered himself king of a new empire. He was Alexander III, King of Macedon. Even his name clearly shows he was not a “first” king.

      In regard to the Diadochi, you mention 40 years, after 50 years it had consolidated into 3 sections under Ptolemy, Antiochus, and Antigonus with the death of Ceraunus and Antiochu’s son conquering Anatolia. Historians do not consider a division of four separate and distinct “horns” as ever being the definitive division of Alexander’s empire. Forcing this division on history is just that: “forcing.”

      The Hellenistic Empire was a foreshadow of what is to come, just as Antiochus IV was a foreshadow of the coming Antichrist. But ultimate fulfillment is to come.

      BTW, this article is about Dan. 8 not 11, let’s not mix the two. Also Davidson’s theories are his. Please discuss them with him.

  11. He said to me, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.” Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright. He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.” (Dan. 8: 17-19 NASB)

    The phrase “pertains to”‘ means to have a connection with something. It does not mean “confined to”, which is the mistake Mark Davidson makes.

    The fulfilment of this prophecy took place centuries ago. But it’s fulfilment has implications that pertain to the last days. Not least of which, is it established the lineage of the Antichrist.

    We can know this is the correct understanding because the prophecy speaks of the first king of Greece, who was the Macedonian: Alexander the Great. And whether you accept the fact that Yavan is Greece, or prefer Turkey, you must accept the fact that both of these countries have had many kings rule over them. So that first king can’t possibly arise in the last days.

    1. I will explain the words “pertains to” in a moment. But first you bring up an excellent point about Alexander. He was NOT the first King of Macedonia. He was about the 20th King, he was Alexander III after all! Also Alexander’s empire was broken up into about 20 regions of the Diadochi which consolodated to five. The historic fulfillment of Dan. 8 was not exact. However, the coming First King of Yavan will be a first king and Yavan will be broken up into 4. How can this be you say? This future Yavan will be a coming Sunni Caliphate based in Istanbul. One that has never existed before.

      Now as to the future fulfillment, there are 3 separate references in Dan. 8:17-19

      1) Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.”

      In Hebrew “pertains” is not found. It simply says “the vision shall be at the time of the end.”

      2) He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation,
      Again this is the FINAL wrath of God. Very clear reference.

      3) for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.
      Again it references the appointed (Mo’ed as in Mo’edim) time of the end

      These three references and the lack of historic fulfillment shows this is a yet future final fulfillment.

  12. Hi Nelson!
    I hope you are feeling better & are back to full power.
    I was listening to the BBC last week. A female negotiator from and for Syria was interviewed in-depth. The negotiator was just sooooo mad at Iran/Assad for what they are doing to Syria. She rattled off major Middle East nations that Iran is in & stirring up trouble. It hit me – The Ram has moved west already…..and has been “pushing and charging” (Amp Bible) around for years – increasing in power!

    The next day I studied all this for about 16 hours. Iran is in Hezbollah, Hamas, funds & arms Palestinians against Israel (Iran helps Sunni “struggles” also) ISIS, insurgencies in south Iraq, HUGE in Syria, HUGE in Yemen, Oman, Qatar, huge in the Taliban…..Iran has a large Kurdish population – they are giving military counsel if not support to the Kurdish PKK Party in Turkey – no less! They are also in Mexico, Central America, South America, Nigeria, Kenya, Senegal, Sudan,Thailand & India. etc…

    The head of the Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is led by Gen. Qasem Soleimani. One of the masterminds of the works of Iranian military program. For all the masterminding – I tell you – those guys are a mess. They are enemies & friends all at the same time! It will blow up one of these days. North Korea sells nuclear info & equipment to Iran.

    Iran, in almost ALL cases conducting PROXY wars, PROXY battles and setting themselves up strategically in more nations to wage some underground supply chain or war. This is why we in the West aren’t seeing them move yet. It’s all underground & proxy.

    One of these days that Shaggy He-Goat is going to have had……. ENOUGH!

    1. Toni this is a very good and important point. I have been considering this myself recently. I haven’t written an article about it yet, but have been meditating on this very thought.

  13. I believe this is all future (Daniel 8). Because in Daniel 8:17 the angel Gabriel tells Daniel that the vision pertains to the time of the end but I saw a youtube video recently where Joel Richardson made the comment that there is a possibility that Gabriel is only talking about verses 9-12 being future because in verse 13 it says How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? It only talks here about the daily sacrifice and the trangression of desolation not the stuff that happens prior to this. Is Gabriel saying the whole vision in chapter 8 is at the time of the end or just the part that pertains to verse 13?

    1. This is a great, great question jlils. Let’s look at the passage closer:

      Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end. The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia. (Dan. 8: 19-20)

      Notice after the discussion of the 2300 days, Gabriel says “I am going to let you know what will occur.” This means that Gabriel hadn’t let him know yet and then immediately launches into the interpretation starting from the very beginning of the vision. Answer this for yourself, is there anyway that can not mean that the entire vision is future? IMO, it is abundantly clear that it is the whole vision. I know Joel believes this as well from talking to him. I think he may have been giving the opinion of others as to it applying to the 2300 days only. Obviously if a commentator doesn’t believe the passage is future they have to explain away the 3 statements by the angel that it is!!!

      Why would a commentator not agree? Tradition and the near fulfillment of this prophecy in the past. Once a passage was nearly fulfilled, a lot of commentators stop right there. They miss the whole concept of foreshadowing; that a passage can have ancient and future implications. They hold this view even when the passage directly say differently and says it three times. Plus add to that, that many commentators have written about Dan. 8 in the past and don’t want to admit they were wrong in the past.

      My thinking is every commentator (Joel and myself included) have been wrong about certain things. All of us should approach the Word of God with the humility that God desires. That isn’t always the case however.

  14. Nelson
    I enjoy your thoughts, but one thing that bothers me is this temple is often said to be Gods temple?is it really, run by unbelievers, in a secular society,who have no time for Christ?blessings

    1. This is an exceptionally good question. This third temple will be the one Christ returns to and sits in as King of the nations. So it will be the Lord’s Temple although it won’t start out that way as you point out. At least that is my take on it.

  15. searching the internet for interpretations of Daniel 8 and came across this from a few months back… could it be that it is not Turkey but in fact Syria? What would Russia’s role in all this be? Things are heating up over there…

    1. Hey Tom, thanks for reading. Daniel 8’s use of the name “YAVAN” is the giveaway that its Turkey. What we are seeing now most likely is the first half of the prophecy where the Ram (IRAN) headbutts west, north and south. The reason no one opposes this action at first is probably Russia’s presence. So Russia is there fulfilling prophecy by helping IRAN. That is all my opinion of course. Only time will tell.

    1. Hi Tosin, Thanks for reading. IMO he will not be the Antichrist. Daniel 8 shows that Iran will invade the Middle East, then Turkey will counterattack defeating Iran’s leader. Then the new Turkish empire will be broken into four. It is out of one of these four, probably the Assyrian section that the AC will arise. If Daniel 11 is truly all yet future, then we will have a clearly delineated path to the AC to follow. Scripture says the AC is a little horn, not a political leader at first, so I expect him to be hidden right now.

  16. I just learned of your site from a facebook post… after reading several of your articles one question i keep having and have had for some years.. what is the meaning of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem? if there is to be an abomination set up in the future.. For example when the dome was erected in what 688ad at that point there was no way anymore sacrifices or the ‘daily’ as it states in Daniel could take place and we that today. Just curious what your thoughts are on this.

    1. Laura, I like your ministry name, Mom on a Purpose! In answer to your question, I’m not sure but I can guess like anyone else.

      First, I’ve read the interpretations that say the days in Daniel are years and that their are so many years from the Dome of the Rock until Israel becomes a nation, etc. These are interesting except the sacrifices ended in 70AD not 688, so as close as it seems there isn’t a perfect match. Plus we have a foreshadow of the Abomination, it was “polluted stones” (see the post HANUKKAH AND THE FUTURE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION) not a building.

      Second, there is a new book out, The Temple, that claims Herod and Solomon’s temples were in the lower city not on the Temple Mount. They claim that the Temple Mount is actually the Antonio Fortress where Pilate tried Jesus and they make great points about this. Read the book and see what you think. If the Dome is not on the site of the former Temples then all Abomination theories about the Dome go out the window.

      So what to make of the Dome. Might a Jewish “wing” be built on the Dome? Might this fulfill the scripture “on a wing of abominations?” I’m not sure. I am unclear at this point. I think we will know when we see it. Sorry I don’t have the answer to this one.

      What I think is amazing is how many end time scriptures have become clear in only the last 10 years. Scriptures hidden for thousands of years. This is what gives me great courage and encouragement. Our Lord is coming soon.


      1. lol you are right! it is amazing how things are becoming clearer by the day.
        I will find that book and check it out. the two things that i wonder alot about is the one i just asked about the Dome and also the many passages about being awake. It amazed me that there are so many warnings to stay awake, keep your clothes on etc when in the midst of all going on.. how can one NOT stay awake.. but again the parable of the 10 virgins they all fell asleep and when the bridegroom arrived only five were fully ready. thank you for your input. Maranatha

        1. Laura, thank you for your comments. I may not have the answer on the Dome of the Rock, but this question I think I have a pretty good handle on. The parable of the ten virgins and the fact they are all (still) asleep is the central organizing theme of my new book Are We Ready For Jesus? How to Prepare for His Return due out in May. Chapter Two of that book discusses the ten virgins and the related concepts of “the thief” and “like a thief.” I can’t possibly do justice to that topic in a comments section.

          The book was written to awaken a sleeping church and especially sleeping pastors, who are the key to awaking the church. We have a ministry Ready For Jesus Ministries built around this book. God is calling 4 to 5 new volunteers daily to the ministry (which to me is staggering.) I will be posting about the Days of Lot today. I am almost finished with the next post after that which will be about the ministry. Expect that post somewhere around the end of the week.

  17. I have read several books regarding the Four Blood Moons, I read the Bible often, and am a believer in God and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. I believe that we are nearing end times, and , truly, not if, but when this war starts, I believe it is time for everyone to get their house in order. Give to the poor, help the needy, turn from greed and possessions, and devote your time to Christ! I want to be in His Book of Life, so I preach daily on social media to my friends and strangers. Though they mock me often, I will continue until the end of my days, hing to save those who are willing to listen and obey His word. May God bless you and fortify your writings to bring more to a life everlasting.

    1. Bless you sister. She who endures to the end SHALL be saved. My new book, Are We Ready For Jesus? is due out May. It has the specific purpose of awakening Pastors and the Church on how to prepare for Jesus’ return. Perhaps you will join our ministry?

  18. Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down. (Dan. 8: 9 – 11 NASB)
    I wonder if this verse does not relate to the Antichrist announcing himself in the temple, which is the start of the Great Tribulation. He is also titled The “abomination of desolation.” For he is the ‘small horn alright but it is said that he will stop the sacrifices in the temple and the word “Him’ is capatalized which to me mean’s “God” I believe that this verse is telling us of the coming of the Antichrist and how he is going to cause pain and suffering for all of God’s people throughout the land as it is Prophesied because of his evil powers…

    If one were to read this further the word “It” means Satan and he was in heaven at first , but, due to his greed he was thrown out of heaven along with some of his ‘henchmen ( for want of better words…) which represents “stars to fall to earth.” Satan of course was thrown down out of heaven because he got too big for his britches, and thought he’d be better than God. Now that he is on this earth he is angry and is now going to cause war with Gods people which he is starting to do now, but the antichrist’s ‘stupidest hour” will be during the Great Tribulation.

    I believe that the “Beautiful Land” refers to Israel for it is there that the Antichrist will be waging most of his war.

    1. Very astute observations Kitty. Remember, however, that capitalizations like “His” are added by the translator and don’t appear in the original text. However in this case the translator is correct. “Him” refers to Jesus. The AC removes the sacrifice from Jesus and Jesus’ sanctuary will be thrown down. “It” refers to the “little horn” who is demon-Beast possessed, so again, you are correct. The passage about throwing down the host of heaven has a dual meaning. This passage was foreshadowed by Antiochus IV. His desecration of the Temple was recorded in Maccabees in the Apocrypha. Read my post HANUKKAH AND THE FUTURE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION to learn more about what this passage meant in the foreshadow. In the future event, I agree with you. It describes the casting down of Satan that occurs at the Midpoint of the Tribulation. Read my other recent post on THE MIDPOINT OF THE TRIBULATION: HEAVEN’S PERSPECTIVE to learn more about this aspect. THE AC’s war with the Jews and Jerusalem is highlighted in my post THE MIDPOINT OF THE TRIBULATION: EARTH’S PERSPECTIVE. I hope you enjoy these other posts.

      You and I are obviously thinking in a similar vein. Blessings sister.

      1. Thank you for your thoughts and time to respond…this blogging thing is new for me LOL…and I’m delighted that I am being read’ so to speak…Much appreciate the vote of confidence!
        and your blessings of which I return .

Tell us what you think